Has anyone switched over from 9mm to 40?

[Streetkahr]

I heard that the FBI recently switched back to allow their agents to carry the 9mm. Too, many of their female agents couldn't handle the recoil of the .40 cal and couldn't qualify with them because of that. I think that anyone should be able to shoot anything they want to shoot, but shoot, that's too easy.

I read the FBI report 3 times. It looks like the main reason is excessive wear in .40 pistols combined with the fact that new ammo technology since 1986 has made top 9mm loads as effective as .40. The FBI reported that cannot tell the difference in wound channel from a 124 g +P 9mm Gold Dot, a 180 g .40, and a .45 JHP. The bullet has to be recovered for it to be known what was fired. When you factor in accelerated pistol wear, similar performance between top calibers, and the fact that most people shoot the 9mm faster and more accurately, the migration back was logical. Top tactical trainers have been reporting the switch back to 9mm for some time. Trainers who focus on surviving The Hole have been advocating 9mm over the .40 due to the focus on shooting at very high speed at close range. The main reason that the FBI and LE are switching back to 9mm is that the 9mm is now as effective as any other caliber with good loads (especially the 124g Gold Dot +P, the Barnes bullet loads, and the Federal HST)and does not wear pistols out like the .40, and almost all LEO's shoot 9mm better. It really did not have anything to do with female agents as a major reason, although it was mentioned. There may be some who would jump all over me for posting this, but read the FBI report first. It is very clear, and it leaves no ***** to argue with that I could see. Pay special attention to the discussion of autopsy results in the report. From what I could gather, the .40 caliber advantage is based on 1980's ammo technology, but that ammo technology circa 2015 has now rendered the 9mm just as effective and faster to shoot. Read that as four attackers at 6 feet. It is not difficult to shoot on the move and get them all with a 9mm if you practice a lot, but it is also not difficult to get three with a .40 and have the 4th one get you. At 6 feet, a faction of a second is life and death. Before jumping all over me, please study the FBI report and read the latest conclusions from CQB trainers focused on surviving The Hole (6 feet or less). New ammo technology has now rendered the 9mm favored with the right loads.

I will say, though, that there is not a damn thing wrong with the .40 for those that shoot it fast and accurate and practice a lot. There is also something to be said for the fact that good .40 loads could be had during during the last ammo shortage but good 9mm loads were very very scarce, as well as .38 +p. Although not as easily obtainable as the .40, there were still some decent .45 Auto loads obtainable in my area. I do think that the best .45 loads may carry an edge over the 9mm. Although not verifiable from autopsies, in the old days there was a belief due to after action reports that slower rounds that killed by momentum like the .44 Special and .45 Auto did not numb and caused more pain causing an opponent to cease an attack faster. There may be something to that, and I do think it would be a mistake to give up what we have learned from the past. I also remember in the old days when .45 hardball was the only .45 round that you could buy, the ribcage was a frequent target because it would cause secondary bone fragment projectiles. I think there is still something to be said for older slower heavy rounds, although they tended to overpenetrate.

[berettabone]

It's good to hear that there is excessive wear in the FBI's .40 pistols...............................it must mean that they are practicing, .........a lot. You can have all of the stats that you want. For 99% of the real world, it doesn't mean a thing to them. IMHO, fit, finish, practice and function, and owner, trump caliber every time. There were a couple of idiots up in this neck, that thought they would rob an Aldi grocery store. A guy in line had a Steyr 9mm, and used it on the perpetrators from about 15 ft. away. Managed to shoot one in the side of the head, out of a couple shots, and got the other one once, by the door, then he ran out. Fortunately, or unfortunately, however you look at it, they both survived. If someone wouldn't have kicked the shotgun the one guy had, away, when he fell, he was still capable of using it. Point being, there should have been at least one deceased, and one wounded badly, no matter the caliber, at that distance. I think he got lucky. I have a feeling though, and it's just my feeling, that if 38 special, or .357, or .40, or .44 mag, or .45 or larger would have been used, you'd have 2 deceased fools. Yes, I realize that todays ammo is much more refined than in years past, and I know that it's not a good feeling to be shot with anything, but, once again, without starting the caliber war, bigger holes are better. That will never change. Even a 9mm to the side of someone's head, doesn't guarantee it will eliminate the problem. Now, if that same shot would have been with a larger caliber, I think the outcome would/could have been different. A 9mm or smaller, in this particular persons hands, didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do the job. Something larger may have.

[Streetkahr]

I'd rather fight than switch. If any of you can remember who made that commercial you're older than dirt.

I'm older than dirt! If my memory is till functional, which is in question, I think it was for Tarrington cigarettes and aired at about the same time as the Camel commercial, "I'd walk a mile for a Camel".

[Streetkahr]

It's good to hear that there is excessive wear in the FBI's .40 pistols...............................it must mean that they are practicing, .........a lot. You can have all of the stats that you want. For 99% of the real world, it doesn't mean a thing to them. IMHO, fit, finish, practice and function, and owner, trump caliber every time. There were a couple of idiots up in this neck, that thought they would rob an Aldi grocery store. A guy in line had a Steyr 9mm, and used it on the perpetrators from about 15 ft. away. Managed to shoot one in the side of the head, out of a couple shots, and got the other one once, by the door, then he ran out. Fortunately, or unfortunately, however you look at it, they both survived. If someone wouldn't have kicked the shotgun the one guy had, away, when he fell, he was still capable of using it. Point being, there should have been at least one deceased, and one wounded badly, no matter the caliber, at that distance. I think he got lucky. I have a feeling though, and it's just my feeling, that if 38 special, or .357, or .40, or .44 mag, or .45 or larger would have been used, you'd have 2 deceased fools. Yes, I realize that todays ammo is much more refined than in years past, and I know that it's not a good feeling to be shot with anything, but, once again, without starting the caliber war, bigger holes are better. That will never change. Even a 9mm to the side of someone's head, doesn't guarantee it will eliminate the problem. Now, if that same shot would have been with a larger caliber, I think the outcome would/could have been different. A 9mm or smaller, in this particular persons hands, didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do the job. Something larger may have.

The 9mm is very dependent on the load used rather than just caliber. LE reports are indicated that some of the top 9mm loads are more effective than some .40 and .45 loads. Where the perps hit with 115 FMJ grain range ammo? It is all dependent on the load rather than the caliber. Many LE agencies like the Speer Gold Dot 124 g +P, and autopsies cannot tell the difference between it and a 180 g .40 or 230 g JHP unless they can recover the bullet because a good JHP will expand making the original diameter not relevant. That is what has changed in the last 30 years. It is a stone cold killer round, as well as the Federal HST in 124 g standard and +P, and the Corbon 115 g +P DPX using the Barnes bullet. Had those rounds been used, there would have been two dead on the scene perps. With the 9mm it is vital that a good load is used because there are still rounds for sale based on 30 - 40 year old ammo technology. If good loads are chosen, it is just as effective as the .40 or .45 per LE reports and autopsies cannot tell between the wound channels of 9mm, .40, or .45. After expansion, the holes are the same size. A plus for the 9mm is that they are still faster to shoot, and the range ammo for practice is cheaper than other calibers. Within reason, it is not the caliber that determines results, it is the load used. Explode off the X and shoot them to the ground.

[CJB]

You went wrong right after .45!!!!

[Manzanita]

I can think of 32 people in 2007 who would say that 9mm is plenty deadly. Haven't run into anybody yet who'd be willing to run downrange and catch so much as a 22lr...

[Streetkahr]

I picked up a .40 from a friends estate. A very nice Beretta Cougar .40. Very reliable and accurate. It has about a 3 3/4 inch barrel, about the same as the CW40. Holds 10+1 or 11+1. I did get a couple mags that were 12+1, but not real confident in them with the full 12. One instructor told the class that on double stack mags, it's best to leave one shy of full capacity for better feeding and reliablity. On single stacks fill em up full. Haven't had any problems filling my double stacks full, except for the 12 round Beretta .40 are awfully tight with 12.
I thought I might as well have a couple .40's so I bought the CW40 as my CC weapon. You can tell it's loaded a bit hotter than your standard 9mm. I put the ported barrel in the CW40 to help with the muzzle flip, it does some good. Not a whole lot, but some. Either cartridge is fine with me, but I prefer the .45, or 44 special in a revolver.

Anyone else ever been told that info about loading double stacks 1 shy of full capacity? Or not topping off the mag after a round is chambered?

Yes, it is old school advice and was SOP with BPH mags. The British SAS would even punish one of their members if he was caught with the 13th round in a BHP mag.

[berettabone]

Yes, we all know that most calibers are deadly, but that's only in the right hands.............apparently in these smaller calibers, lousy shots versus good shots are critical, more so than larger calibers. It's a debate that rages on, but it's got me thinking about starting to carry a larger caliber. I carry 9mm right now, and occasionally .45. I may just split the difference and start carrying my HK .40 cal.

[Streetkahr]

Has anyone switched over from 9mm to 40?

You went wrong right after .45!!!!

LOL! One thing is for sure, and that is that no one is ever critical of a good .45 shooters choice of caliber.