Techinical Discussion of Follower Mod

[OldLincoln]

Ever since sanding the follower became vogue people I respect praise the mod. I have tried my best to figure out how this mod can change the path of the 7th round above it.

I have even tried to model the change by applying a spacer under the nose of the 1st round sitting directly on the follower. I have tried even ridicules angles like with a 1/4" spacer I have to hold the bottom 6rds in place to keep them from standing up. Even with that, as soon as the top round is pushed against the mag lips the spaces return and sop do the feed angles.

So, finally I took it to the M1911.org Forum Magazine section. I asked the question and received some thoughtful replies that only confirm my experiments. I might try it myself except my mags feed perfect so I wouldn't know if it does work or not unless I screwed something up.

So, I ask the acknowledged experts here who find it effective to discuss WHY/HOW it works.

BTW: They discuss 1911 mags but the mechanics should apply to either.

[Scoundrel]

Let's clarify which follower mod you are talking about.

A. The "nosedive mod" removes material from one corner of the follower where the mag release catch is, to prevent it from hanging up on the catch and not providing enough pressure to push the round up.
B. The "slingshot mod" changes the angle of the follower, to help with being able to "slingshot" or rack the slide by hand without locking it all of the way back and using the slide lock lever to release it.

I assume you're talking about the "slingshot mod" and not the "nosedive mod".

OK, my input is not going to be very technical, which is unusual for me, but here it goes:

1. I did the mod and it did make the thing very easy to rack. In fact, I can ride the slide back down slowly (and quietly), and it will still chamber the round smoothly. So it works.

2. I suspect that while it may not change the angle of the round, it does change where the pressure is applied to the round, effectively moving the "fulcrum" or pivot point, which makes all the difference on how easily the round will change angle on its way out of the magazine.

I wish I had proof of this or a way to model it with a computer or a clear lexan gun or something, but this is the best I can do.

Next!

[air8]

Tough crowd at that forum. Interesting data. I'm just here to hear the discussion.

[CJB]

My thoughts are with OL on this... but since my mags feed just fine, I didn't bring it up!

[OldLincoln]

1. I did the mod and it did make the thing very easy to rack. In fact, I can ride the slide back down slowly (and quietly), and it will still chamber the round smoothly. So it works.

2. I suspect that while it may not change the angle of the round, it does change where the pressure is applied to the round, effectively moving the "fulcrum" or pivot point, which makes all the difference on how easily the round will change angle on its way out of the magazine.

I wish I had proof of this or a way to model it with a computer or a clear lexan gun or something, but this is the best I can do.

Next!

Okay.... by lengthening the follower's touch on the bottom round it can change how it leaves the mag lips. Perhaps instead of releasing it when the balance point hits the sloped ramp it holds it a tad longer. In other words it doesn't squirt it out like a watermelon seed but slips it out in a more controlled path. I can see the possibility of that for bottom round that sits on the follower, but not the ones up the line.

One pic in that thread shows the 1911 mag with 4 rounds that lay flat. According to my understanding that is because the rounds remain in contact throughout their length bottom to top.

They say the slope of a full mag means the top round hangs out in front of the support from the lower rounds. Predictably, then if a mag were truly vertical there would be no gaps under the nose and all would feed without a nosedive.

[Deano]

Let's clarify which follower mod you are talking about.

A. The "nosedive mod" removes material from one corner of the follower where the mag release catch is, to prevent it from hanging up on the catch and not providing enough pressure to push the round up.
B. The "slingshot mod" changes the angle of the follower, to help with being able to "slingshot" or rack the slide by hand without locking it all of the way back and using the slide lock lever to release it.

I assume you're talking about the "slingshot mod" and not the "nosedive mod".

OK, my input is not going to be very technical, which is unusual for me, but here it goes:

1. I did the mod and it did make the thing very easy to rack. In fact, I can ride the slide back down slowly (and quietly), and it will still chamber the round smoothly. So it works.

2. I suspect that while it may not change the angle of the round, it does change where the pressure is applied to the round, effectively moving the "fulcrum" or pivot point, which makes all the difference on how easily the round will change angle on its way out of the magazine.

I wish I had proof of this or a way to model it with a computer or a clear lexan gun or something, but this is the best I can do.

Next!

I agree with this. And by the way, the "slingshot mod" is what fixed my nosedive problem, not the "nosedive mod". The problem in my mind is the fulcrum in the middle of the follower. Moving this forward somehow must change the forces pushing up on the rounds in such a way that the nose stays up better. It makes sense to me, and I know it works from personal experience. My nosedive problem completely cleared up.

As a side note, I just installed wolff +5% springs to my 7 round mags, thinking that his may have been part of the problem. I have not gotten to the range to see if it helps, but if you listen to the experts on the other forum, it should make the problem worse, not better. I'll return with my findings once I've had a chance to test them out.

Also, interesting to me, is the fact that I emailed my findings to the v.p. of sales and marketing, as well as the regional sales rep for my region. I sent a detailed description of the problem, as well as links to the threads with photos of the mod. That was two weeks ago, and I haven't heard a peep from them. I suspect it was ignored. Fixing this problem with their mags would eliminate a lot of headaches for the tech support arm of the company. You would think they might care enough to look into it.

[kerby9mm]

Neither one of my mk's have this problem with the 6 or 7 round mags. It puzzles mg to hear that so many others do. There must be some overall solution its not magical its a machine.

[DKD]

I did the magazine follower modification last night on my P380 which was having serious nose dive lock ups for the first couple rounds in a fully loaded magazine, but only with WW Silver Tips & Speer Gold Dot carry ammo. Since I really liked the Gold Dots and use them in my PM9 & PM45 I really wanted them to work in their little brother.
The long and short of it was that it did seem to help alot. I still get a nose dive on the first round with Gold Dots when using the slide lock method about 50% of the time. I can however use the sling shot method and get them to work. So for now I load five, rack a round, them top off the mag and move on. I don't know for sure but I think this will get better with more rounds down range as the pistol is still new and not fully broken in as yet.
Subsequent rounds just seem to get easier and I can even ride the slide some and still get the rounds to load properly. My personal hand loaded JHP's worked perfectly even before the magazine modification. I feel the nose shape and OAL of the ammo has some input causing this to occur.

[wlc]

I don't have any other brand of single stack 9mm. Does the gap between the top round and the next one down with a full magazine happen with them?

[DKD]

WIC,
The answer is yes that top round does have quite a gap between it and the second round and doe this on all of my Kahr magazines in all three calibers.
The Mag Mod does seem to reduce that gap. Now I haven't had to do the Mag Mod on my PM9 or PM45, as I had no problems with nose dives on those two pistols.
I did notice that as you feed & cycle the remaining rounds, that gap goes down to nothing by round number three , four, five & six. Must have something to due with spring pressure and the natural taper of the ammo, especially the 9mm. There was a recent thread about that yesterday.

[wlc]

I was wondering if the same is true with other brand single stack 9mm, LC9, Nano, P238, and etc.

Thanks

[DKD]

WIC,

Thanks a good question. I can't say, but I will check out my Sig 238 when I get home tonight and let you know. If they don't that would certiainly point to a design specific issue with the kahr style mags.

[Scoundrel]

I was wondering if the same is true with other brand single stack 9mm, LC9, Nano, P238, and etc.
Thanks

The Astra A-75L 9mm has a significant gap, looks just like the Kahr mag.

[Scoundrel]

Okay.... by lengthening the follower's touch on the bottom round it can change how it leaves the mag lips. Perhaps instead of releasing it when the balance point hits the sloped ramp it holds it a tad longer. In other words it doesn't squirt it out like a watermelon seed but slips it out in a more controlled path. I can see the possibility of that for bottom round that sits on the follower, but not the ones up the line.

OK, I'm not an engineer or anything, but look at the attached image. The down arrows indicate force being applied (not the same place force is applied in magazines, mind you, this is only an analogy). Do you think that changing the position of the fulcrum (represented by the circle) would only affect the bottom rectangle, or the whole stack?

BTW, if there ARE any engineers out there, and I am wrong, PLEASE enlighten us. I'm willing to be wrong.

[JFootin]

Good illustration, Scoundrel. Moving the fulcrum point affects all of the rounds. Or, so my engineer's mind tells me.