Chambering the first round, a slingshot modification

[gb6491]

Just wondering if there is any interest in a modification to the Kahr 9mm follower that makes chambering a round via the "slingshot method" much easier and consistent (IMO, enough so that they could rewrite the manual). It also seems to hold the top round better and might prevent loss of the round during loose pocket carry.

Regards,
Greg

Modification detailed in post #12
Note!: While I'm very pleased with the results of these mods, some folks have tried modifying the follower (though not exactly as I did) and not had the same results (to varying degrees). It could be that I just encountered a "perfect storm" with this mod and my particular gun. If you attempt something similar please keep this in mind and be sure to read their posts.

UPDATE: You can now buy a metal follower from Lakeline LLC that will do the same thing that this mod does and it's a well made product (virtually eliminates the chance of a broken front follower skirt):

[mr surveyor]

surv

[JimBianchi]

ping for more info

[ripley16]

I've thought for as long as I've owned a Kahr that the magazine design is the weakness of the line and needs to be redesigned.

[Thunder71]

In my opinion that's how it SHOULD work... I racked the slide on my XDM last night to chamber a round and really wish my Kahr was like that - it's the only drawback to the gun.

[jocko]

funny, Ihave no issues with the kahr magazines in racdking a live round into the gun in my K9 or PJM9 or P380. Kahrs magazines are waht they are by design, not by accident. I credit thatto the offset feed ramp allowing a lower bore axis and there fore a more pleasant gun to shoot than most.. It's only a drwaback if you allow it to be that.

[gb6491]

funny, Ihave no issues with the kahr magazines in racdking a live round into the gun in my K9 or PJM9 or P380. Kahrs magazines are waht they are by design, not by accident. I credit thatto the offset feed ramp allowing a lower bore axis and there fore a more pleasant gun to shoot than most.. It's only a drwaback if you allow it to be that.

Jocko,
I agree to a point. I can rack rounds into my CW9 and CW45 without issue using the magazines as they come from the factory. The CW45 can be done in almost any manner. The CW9 requires strict attention to technique and is not tolerant of sloppiness. I believe this is enough of a problem that Kahr rewrote their manual to advise only using the slide stop to chamber a round.
Likewise, while the Kahr magazines are what they are by design and not by accident, I agree with Ripley 16: "I've thought for as long as I've owned a Kahr that the magazine design is the weakness of the line and needs to be redesigned." I've detailed my issues with the CW45 magazine before (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1612) and certainly believe the 9mm magazine performance could be improved upon.
Now, with that all said, I respect the opinion of others and if they are happy with a thing as it is, well all the more power to them. I'm not trying to convince anyone they need to mod their magazines, just letting them know what works for me. As in most things, YMMV

For those with interest: write up to follow.
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Put me in the interested column. Theres room for improvement in just about everything and your just the guy to help make it happen.

[BEARDOG]

I am interested in seeing your mod Greg.

I have played with the idea of increasing the angle of the follower before to help this issue, but never made any permanent changes to the few mags I have.

[wyntrout]

Ditto, Greg.

Wynn

[gb6491]

OK folks, here's how I did it (it's not a "how to do it", so proceed with caution and at your own risk if decide to attempt something similar)
Note!: While I'm very pleased with the results of these mods, some folks have tried modifying the follower (though not exactly as I did) and not had the same results (to varying degrees). It could be that I just encountered a "perfect storm" with this mod and my particular gun. If you attempt something similar please keep this in mind and be sure to read their posts.

First off I want to give some credit where it is due. I’m sure many here have seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPa3MtWkias
Basically, the maker of it suggests the use of a ProMag magazine to facilitate loading the first round from a magazine.

I finally acquired a ProMag (thanks Jim) for a little hands on research. ProMag has something of a less than stellar reputation on the internet. I’m not going to try and change that because, after seeing this magazine, I believe it’s warranted. I do need to mention that this magazine was used, so read the following with that in mind. My ProMag is a ten round magazine; I found the spring is totally inadequate for that configuration. To compound this, the follower is rough and oversize. The magazine would only feed two rounds before a nose dive stoppage on the third round. However, it did feed the first round easily; now is that because of the loose spring tension (my Kahr will usually feed without issue from a downloaded magazine) or something else. After a little comparison, I decided to eliminate the magazine tube from the equation and opted to try the ProMag follower in a Kahr magazine. My first thought here was use the Kahr spring, but it will not work with the follower unless the follower is modified to accept it. Speaking of modifications, the follower needs to sanded on it sides and rear to function without binding in the Kahr tube. I tried installing the follower with the ProMag spring and was able to fit it all in the Kahr magazine tube. This combination allowed for a capacity of 7 rounds (just like a complete Kahr unit). It also put the rounds under much more spring tension. Bench testing confirmed that the top round still fed easily and that the follower would lock the slide back. Testing in the field, the magazine functioned without issue. If the ProMag spring will hold up, I believe this is a viable modification as is.

Here's the ProMag follower/spring in a Kahr tube at work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYYZrSqGTdk

I’m not inclined to trust that spring; beside that, I’m not sure where to find a replacement if need should arise.
As it did put comparable (to an OEM magazine) pressure on the top round, I decided that the follower is the reason this all works. Now, I probably could modify the follower to work with the Kahr spring and be done with it, but after some study thought I could modify the Kahr follower to work and eliminate the need to buy extra parts.

What I did to the Kahr follower requires a pencil and some sand paper.
There is a transition point on the Kahr follower where the front portion of the feed surface slopes downward from the rear section. I decided this needs to be reduced and moved forward. I did this by wrapping the pencil in sandpaper and sanding along the rear plane of the follower maintaining it original angle. This did not totally solve the feeding issue, but perhaps it might if you took it further than I did. Then again, you risk sanding through the top of the follower. Next, I sanded the top of the follower, reducing the two ridges there. I did this by laying the sandpaper on a flat surface and sanding the top by moving the follower (again maintaining the existing angle). Now we’re cooking! Bench testing results were great as the top round feeds much easier than the stock configuration and there is no change to how the slide locks back. My previous video shows how it works, but here's another where I somewhat ride the slide home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogM036r016M

How to sand:

How much to sand with the pencil backed sandpaper:

How much to sand using a flat surface (just under .06" on the calipers. I suggest repeated testing as material is removed to preclude manufacturing tolerances causing any issues) :

Finished:

For comparison:


Update - I had an interesting development:
"... I had both mags apart yesterday and upon reassembly, both required brisk manipulation to feed hollow point (no more riding the slide). I was dumbfounded by this development, but figured it had to be something I had done. A quick checked showed that everything looked good (parts were clean and installed correctly with the springs properly orientated). I decided to flip ends of the springs and was back in business after doing this. While this worked, I've no clue why other than there is the slightest difference between ends of the springs (and on both springs). The end that seems to have a less steep angle on the last coil needed to be at the follower. I'm going to follow this up when the new springs arrive."

So for now, I'm pleased with my modified mags, but want to do more testing. (as of 5-27, make that "very pleased" )
Regards,
Greg

[Thunder71]

So you used all Kahr parts for the modification or a mix of Kahr and ProMag?

[gb6491]

So you used all Kahr parts for the modification or a mix of Kahr and ProMag?

My apologies for not being clearer. There are actually two possible modifications described in my post:
The first involves a Kahr magazine tube with a ProMag follower and magazine. This is pretty much just a parts swap (the exception being that the follower made need some fitting).

Everything (text, photos, and link) found below where I wrote in bold "What I did to the Kahr follower requires a pencil and some sand paper." describes a mod using only Kahr parts. This mod does require work be done to the Kahr follower.

Regards,
Greg

[Serafino]

Greg thank you for taking the time to post this. Thank you also for not being satisfied with things as they were, despite the fact that some almost seem to disapprove of such dissatisfaction.

What you have done sounds like just the sort of thing that ought to already have happened long ago in a conscientiously engineered product. Being able to chamber a round by racking the slide is crucial to speed in malfunction clearance and speed is everything in a gunfight.

[TominCA]

Thanks for the effeort that went into giving us this - It looks like it would be worth doing and the maximum "risk" is only a follower!