Chambering the first round, a slingshot modification

[steveschu]

I have no problem feeding a live round with my K9 by racking the slide even when brand new. Just make sure to pull the slide all the way back until it can go back no further. You can hear the noise of the barrel hit the cam surface. One of the easiest ways to rack it is to grasp the slide with the thumb and forefinger of the nonshooting hand. Push the shooting hand forward as far as possible and release the slide to chamber a cartridge. Because of the heavy recoil spring, it is easier to work the slide by pushing forward on the frame than by pulling back on the slide.
BTW, my K9 no longer has issue with premature slide lock and the recoil is softer with new slide stop, and recoil spring that Kahr sent me.

The rearward slide distance of my P380 is exactly the distance of the slide stop. Of course any Kahr pistol can be armed using the slingshot method without modification IF the slide is pulled rearward EXACTLY as far back as it will go and released. Difficult to do consistently with stiff springs.

[david8613]

I wanted to ask is everyone doing this mod? looks interesting...

[DKD]

For what it's worth I did do the follower modification on all three of my P380 magazines. It definately did reduce the angle of the top rounds, which in turn allowed for the top rounds to feed more smoothly. I can even hand rack the slide when I couldn't prior to the modification. The modification is even allowing the slide stop loading of the top round with Speer Gold Dots, which it absolutley would not due prior and would jam every time.
I problabaly could have saned a little more than I did, but it is easy enough to remove a bit more rather tha over do it to start with in the first go around. I am going to run another hundre or so rounds before a do any further sanding. I feel with more rounds down range and with the modification will make a major improvement to the cycling & smoothing out of the pistol.

[7shot]

a quick video of my results using Greg's mod.............

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9729

Am I the only one who can slingshot his or her Kahr with no issues or modifications?

I've had my K9 since March and have had no issues sling shotting the slide when clambering a round. This is the only way I've ever done it on any simi-auto I've owned. But the K9 is also the smallest auto I ever owned!

[CB3]

Friction and cartridge angle

I have a little different take on this first round failure to feed (FTF) issue. Feel free to disagree, but I have used this method on many rifles and pistols from different manufacturers and only once have I had a persistent failure to feed. That gun went back to the factory and was repaired under warranty.

All three of my Kahrs, 2 x P40 and a TP9 (8-rnd mags), have no problem with the slingshot loading method. I will not use a self defense gun that requires a slide lock release to chamber a round. I knew of the challenges on new Kahrs and experienced them on one of mine initially, although it was a used gun when I bought it with an unknown number of rounds through it, but I fixed it.

Principle #1: If the bullet hits the feed ramp with enough force and at the correct angle, it will bounce up into the chamber. It will not nose dive.

Principle #2: The feed lips at the top of the fully loaded mag have far more to do with the angle of the bullet aimed toward the ramp than the follower at the bottom of the stack of cartridges.

If the bullet nose dives, it is usually because there is not sufficient force from the slide closing to pop it straight forward and up onto the feed ramp. If the bullet needs to point up higher, the front of the feed lips need to be opened slightly. Also, the feed lips need to be polished so there is a minimum of friction between each cartridge and the lips. However, if there is not a sufficent amount of force behind the cartridge to strip it out the mag in the correct orientation (bullet into the ramp), or the ramp is rough, you could have a FTF.

As well, if the mag spring is weak, or the follower hangs up in the tube so the bullet does not rise to the lips fast enough, FTF's will occur.

Principle #3: Slide speed to strip the round from the mag is adversely affected by:

Too much friction with the slide/frame fit (Typical on new guns)
Improper manipulatin of the slide.
Weak recoil spring

As well, an unpolished feed ramp will add friction to the path of bullet travel, and can cause a FTF, especially when slide speed is not optimal.

New Kahrs are stiff and require a "break in" to polish mating surfaces and reduce friction to become reliable feeders. Instead of getting frustrated with FTF's, spending a lot of money on ammo and time at the range, losing confidence in my new gun, I just take care of the break in before I ever fire it.

When I get a new semi-auto, Kahr or any other, the first thing I do is polish all the slide mating surfaces. Rails especially, but all other metal-to-metal contact surfaces. Then I use a thin coat of grease rather than oil on these surfaces, because grease stays in place better and longer, has a higher flash point, and reduces friction better (except perhaps in extreme cold weather). My gun feels like it has already had a couple of thousand rounds through it before I shoot it. Slide action is smooooth, without friction.

I polish the feed ramp. Look at it under magnification and you will see machining marks 90 degrees against the feed path of the bullet.

I polish the mag feed lips, and the follower if necessary to make sure it rides through the mag tube without any hangups.

With new factory springs, I am able to immediately slingshot the top round of a mag into the chamber without problems. There is significantly less friction than with a "new" gun, and slide speed is at the optimum.

After polishing, which never needs to be done again, if feed problems develop, I make sure the gun is very clean and properly lubricated to reduce friction. If there is still a problem, I replace springs with Wolff's. The problem goes away. I keep replacements on hand for immediate changes if required, which is very rare.

If changing the geometry of the follower at the bottom of a stack of cartridges really affects the ability of the top round to hit the feed ramp at the proper angle, I would be shocked, all anecdotal evidence from this thread to the contrary.

Slowly hand cycling a round will often cause a nose dive with many guns, not just Kahrs. The slide is supposed to slam that cartridge forward fast, which should prevent a nose dive. A properly performed sling shot will always have just as much force, if not more, than releasing a slide stop. Improperly performed sling shots, with even a slight degree of riding the slide forward, will reduce slide speed and contribute to nose dives in a new, stiff, improperly lubricated gun.

I am not one to purchase a gun and step onto the range five minutes later and fire it, only to be disappointed. It goes home first, is thoroughly cleaned, polished, lubricated, checked for perfect cycling function without firing, THEN I go to the range. I have no problems, and that gives me great confidence in my carry gun.

If I were to have feeding problems with a gun that was processed as above, including a slight adjustment if necessary to the mag feed lips, I would send it right back to the factory for repair.

[gb6491]

CB3,
A comprehensive and interesting post, thanks for taking the time to put it together.
I happen to agree with much of what you posted.
However, let's investigate this statement: "Principle #2: The feed lips at the top of the fully loaded mag have far more to do with the angle of the bullet aimed toward the ramp than the follower at the bottom of the stack of cartridges."
I agree that the magazine's feed lips have a lot to do with how a round feeds from the magazine, but the lips are not the whole story. The succeeding rounds or the the magazine follower (for the last round) are the other part of the equation. They must adequately support and position the round that is feeding. It could be argued that, at some point in the feed cycle, they have more influence on the nose of the round than the feed lips do.
At the time I was playing with this mod I determined to my satisfaction (I had built a jig to test it) that altering the follower can affect how rounds stack in the magazine tube. It's my experience that this stacking affects how the top round in a full magazine (subsequent rounds have a larger window because of less spring pressure) reacts to a round feeding over it. I'm of the opinion, that if that top round in the magazine lacks a certain "spring" that it can be forced into a position (by the round that is feeding) where it cannot recover from and from which it does not adequately position/support the nose of the round that is feeding:this results in the round that is feeding striking the ramp to low to feed.
Anyway, that's how I see it and working along those lines has given me the results I was looking for in my CW9: http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=4t7p8k&s=7
That you have obtained similar results using a different methodology is a welcome addition to the board. BTW: the very innovative "Steve in Sunny Fla." has also come up with a method that works for him. I invite you to give it a look as well: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=15460&page=2
So let me close by saying, thanks again for the informative post and Welcome to the forums!
Regards,
Greg

[Kickback]

The actual modification seems to be cut off in the Youtube video. Can anyone point me to the instructions for the modifucation itself?

New Kahr owner.

[Tilos]

kickback:
Page two and four of this thread have pics and measurements.
You are in the right thread, be a little more pro active in searching for the info.
It's here...look around.

[Gangplank]

Ok, so if I'm reading this thread right this mod makes it so you can slingshot the cartridge vs using the slide stop as recommended in the manual?

Reading the manual it says: "Pull the slide fully to the rear and lock it back using the Slide Stop. Next Push down on the Slide Stop to chamber the first round into the barrel. Do not chamber a round by pulling back on the slide and letting go of the slide. This may cause the slide to not go fully into battery."

Or does this mod allow you to ride the slide and slowly and quietly chamber the round?

I'm not sure I see a reason to slingshot a round vs using the slide stop to close the slide. I can see a "carry concealed" reason to want to ride the slide and quietly chamber the first round stealth like.

:?

[JustinN]

The Slingshot method is how some people, myself included, were trained to do it, and its a hard habit to break. When Kahr's are brand new and super tight, most people will ride the slingshot forward a bit and thus hang the slide up before full battery. Kahr states to use the slide stop so you do not have this issue. It's a matter of preference, but no, it isn't referring to slowly and quietly trying to push it into battery. You may be able to accomplish that, but generally that could be a bad idea...If you're trying to be sneaky I assume you're getting ready to confront someone, and loading your gun in a way that might not be full battery/fully operational would be bad.

[jocko]

stealth style??? To much to do about nuttin. If u slowly try to ride a kahr slide, ur more than likely gonna get feed issues. Travel at ur own risk but most carry with one in thepipe so the stealth style hand racking IMO doesn't fit.

Yes some guns u might be able to slowly rack in a round but the slide stop lever release, will do one thing that most owners don't do correctly. It will release that slide with khe same needed slide velocity to load that round.

[Ikeo74]

I hand rack both my Kahrs and ride the slide home. They have never failed to go into battery. CM9 and MK9
That is they it works for me. From empty, I insert the mag, rack it fully back until I hear the bullet cycle up and ride the slide back to full battery.

On a brand new gun with the mag fully loaded to max capacity it might not work. That is why I think Kahr recommends the slide release method. To insure battery for those weaker hand people. If your gun is broken in with more than 200 rounds, try it. It may work for you too.

A small correction. If I am target shooting and run out of ammo with the slide locked back, I insert a full mag and use the slide release. That is the only time I use the slide release. Now an exception to that would be if I was shooting gang bangers and ran out of ammo while there were still some of them standing, I would reload and use the slide release then too.

[NoBite]

Question for jocko - I learned to rack the slide using a 1911, not gently! You aren't going to hurt the pistol. RACK that slide! It is difficult to train myself to now use the slide release. Are you saying that if you do know how to properly rack a slide, it is okay to do that with a Kahr as you would with most every other semi-automatic pistol?


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[JustinN]

Question for jocko - I learned to rack the slide using a 1911, not gently! You aren't going to hurt the pistol. RACK that slide! It is difficult to train myself to now use the slide release. Are you saying that if you do know how to properly rack a slide, it is okay to do that with a Kahr as you would with most every other semi-automatic pistol?

Test it. You'll figure out really quick if you rack it properly to get it to work. The manual states use the slide stop. This prevents issues from arising from people who don't do it right. I can sling shot them with no problem, but if it does hang on a round, I will know it was 99% my fault and not the gun.

[jocko]

there

Question for jocko - I learned to rack the slide using a 1911, not gently! You aren't going to hurt the pistol. RACK that slide! It is difficult to train myself to now use the slide release. Are you saying that if you do know how to properly rack a slide, it is okay to do that with a Kahr as you would with most every other semi-automatic pistol?


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is nuttin wrong in hand racking the slide, IF u do it properly. My po9nt was that kahrsw are hard to hand rack (f0or most anyhow) and especially when new and the recoil springs have not taken their set yet and the gun instelf has not smoothed out yet.

Practice both ways. The sure way to avoid any issues if USE THE SLIDE STOP LEVER. For range play/training or what ever. that is the time to tryt the hand racking thing. if u fail, no big deal.

I at first could not hand racy my P380, just no way it was going to allow me to do it. Using the slide release lever worked every time. Now that the gun has about 500+ round stough it, I cannow hand rack it with ease, but I still use the lever as thegun is small and just not alot to grab hold of. Some have better success than others to, Error on the side of caution, use the slide release lever for awhile. U should practice the scenario of a misfire, dead round or what ever, so hand racking is a must .to.

Everyone wil have their own way todo things, so what ever floats ur boat, is fine..