P45 trigger bar sticking fix

[dorangolv]

Hey! I think I figured out the (Biggest) problem with my P45. I took several close up shots to illustrate it. As yet I have not seen any threads dedicated to this particular fix. At the right rear corner where the slide presses down the trigger bar during cycling, I found mine was not being pressed down but instead was getting smashed between the slide rail and the polymer frame rail.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...barwedgedc.jpg

This caused a great deal more friction and resulted in failure to feed, failure to eject and failure to go fully into battery, not to mention no trigger reset.
Why does it do that? When the trigger is pulled, the Trigger Bar (TB) slides forward. As it moves forward, it tilts inward toward the frame rail due to the torque applied from the trigger pulling and the cam resisting the pull.

In the first of three pictures you can see TB at the rear tilted slightly out, 0% trigger pull.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...r0released.jpg

Second picture; 50% Trigger pull, TB in middle and tilting inward as indicated by the shadow. At this point, the TB is most susceptible getting wedged between the slide rail and the frame rail.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...erpulled50.jpg

Third picture; Trigger at 100% pulled all the way back, TB forward and tilted back out away from frame slightly.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...rpulled100.jpg

In this picture you can even tell the top portion of the tab has been ground away and is thinner at the top.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...Framerailb.jpg

Here the slide rail has been worn uneven and is thinner at the end of the rail. Compare the two rail ends on the right and left. The rounded corner I did as part of the fix. But the width of the two is different.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...Slideraila.jpg
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...Sliderailc.jpg

The fix? I removed the side panel and grabbed the top of the trigger bar with pliers. I pried the top most tab of the trigger bar outwards, away from the frame rail. I had to reassemble, test and repeat several times before it was moved out away from the polymer rails and properly pushed down into the frame by the passing slide.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...barwedgedd.jpg
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...barwedgedf.jpg
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...barwedgedg.jpg


Suddenly the slide racks so much smoother and easier without binding up like before.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...ingpressed.jpg
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...notpressed.jpg


The other issue may or may not have caused any problems. The cylinder part of the slide release lever would not rotate. I didn’t know it was supposed to. I thought the slide release lever was one solid piece.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...leaselever.jpg

The cylinder portion that inserts through the center of the barrel lug was frozen and would not rotate independently of the lever portion. That means that it was not rotating as needed when the barrel lug passed back and forth over it. It would cause additional friction and prevent the barrel from going fully into battery. So I soaked it for a few hours in Rem Oil while I was at work. Came home and began to spin the piece around and around for 10 minutes until it was about 90% free.
To test my theory, I colored half of the tip that sticks out on the right side with a red felt marker.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...dereleasea.jpg

Then I ran 8 full magazines through, cycling all the rounds by hand. Then I checked to see if the cylinder portion had moved. It did move, ¼ of a turn.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...dereleaseb.jpg

Wouldn’t have believed it if I didn’t see it my self.

[gb6491]

Congrats on fixing your P45
I guess we now know why the original owner let it go.
I think you did an excellent job with that and the write up is top notch.

FWIW, the pin on the three piece slide stop rotates independent of the lever on some stops, on others it doesn't.
It shouldn't matter either way (for sure, the pin rotates with the lever on the single piece stops).

Regards,
Greg

[dorangolv]

Thank you for the kind words. I was trying to meet the standard you set with your photos and instructions. You are a legend in these parts.
"FWIW, the pin on the three piece slide stop rotates independent of the lever on some stops, on others it doesn't.
It shouldn't matter either way (for sure, the pin rotates with the lever on the single piece stops)."

I know that there is a difference between CW45 and the P45 Slide stop. CW45 is MIM, P45 is forged. I don't know if the CW45 Slide stop has the rotating cylindrical piece or if it's solid.
My logic was this; the rotating cylindrical piece (pin) is in constant contact with the inside of the barrel lug. If it can't rotate, there will be more friction working against the inside of the barrel lug, barrel and slide as they move forward and up into battery. That's why I thought it may have been a contributing factor in 'slowing down' the forward progress of the slide causing it to stop short of battery if it couldn't rotate.
I discovered this rotating business by accident while watching a YouTube video of a guy field stripping his Kahr. He was holding the slide stop lever by the pin end and it was spinning around free as he flicked it with his finger. Mine was almost totally frozen.
If however, the CW45 pin is fixed and does not move, ("for sure, the pin rotates with the lever on the single piece stops") everything I just said is moot and all of this goes right out the window. That's why I had to qualify my post by saying, "The other issue may or may not have caused any problems."
(leaving myself room to waffle and equivocate if I was shown to be wrong. )
It does rotate in the direction consistent with the slide moving forward and the barrel lug bumping into it and being forced up into battery. Remove the pin and look into the hole as you move the slide back and forth, you'll see that "Ramp" playing Peek-a-boo as the slide moves forward just before the barrel gets pushed up into battery.
Or I'm blowing smoke outta my ass and it all means nothing.

[CJB]

You're not quite right on the rotational part.

The part does rotate, at times, but its not designed to do so. The part is made of three components. The lever, which is investment cast or metal injection molded (doesn't matter), the pin itself, and the retainer. The pin has a groove ground in one end, and that's where the retainer rides. These are a tight fight on most P series Kahr's (and K's too I guess). On the C series, they use a solid MIM piece, and of course it does not rotate. The original idea that Justin had was to make the pin as strong as possible. Kahr states that the pin is very tough, and is formed with grinding operations. The lever is added, and the retainer holds them together. Someplace along the production cycle... the MIM part was developed. It proves to be at least as good as the three piece unit. You never hear of a failure.... FWIW, Colt has been using MIM slide stops since the early 80's (or IC perhaps, then changing to MIM). Most parts of that nature are not machined fully but formed, then finish machined. Take a close look at the checkering on your lever... and under hte lever and you'll see parting marks someplace in almost every part (or at least the one's I've examined).

They rotate not by accident, but by happenstance.

[CJB]

I should also add, then once they get to spinning, you can develop a loose fit lever that has a tendancy for lateral (sideways) movement in relation to the frame.... you want a relative tight fit of lever to pin. Rotation is acceptable, but I'd not try to further it along, or try to make some sort of super smooth device of it. The pin is HARD... too hard to file. It also has a very fine surface finish. The barrel glides on it like an ice cube on glass. Well almost.

[dorangolv]

Slide lock lever and trigger bar

You're not quite right on the rotational part.

The part does rotate, at times, but its not designed to do so. The part is made of three components. The lever, which is investment cast or metal injection molded (doesn't matter), the pin itself, and the retainer. The pin has a groove ground in one end, and that's where the retainer rides. These are a tight fight on most P series Kahr's (and K's too I guess). On the C series, they use a solid MIM piece, and of course it does not rotate. The original idea that Justin had was to make the pin as strong as possible. Kahr states that the pin is very tough, and is formed with grinding operations. The lever is added, and the retainer holds them together. Someplace along the production cycle... the MIM part was developed. It proves to be at least as good as the three piece unit. You never hear of a failure.... FWIW, Colt has been using MIM slide stops since the early 80's (or IC perhaps, then changing to MIM). Most parts of that nature are not machined fully but formed, then finish machined. Take a close look at the checkering on your lever... and under hte lever and you'll see parting marks someplace in almost every part (or at least the one's I've examined).

They rotate not by accident, but by happenstance.

Cool! Tons of good intel. Thank you CJB for responding. As I said at the start, I wasn't sure if this was a contributing factor or not. It is much more likely that the smashed trigger bar was to blame for all my headaches.

[yqtszhj]

very good troubleshooting job there. I'm gonna refer someone else to your link already. Thanks

[dorangolv]

very good troubleshooting job there. I'm gonna refer someone else to your link already. Thanks

Hope it helps somebody else. Finally got my gun running after 950+ rounds fired. I'm up around 1150 now.

[bwh]

You're not quite right on the rotational part.

The part does rotate, at times, but its not designed to do so. The part is made of three components. The lever, which is investment cast or metal injection molded (doesn't matter), the pin itself, and the retainer. The pin has a groove ground in one end, and that's where the retainer rides. These are a tight fight on most P series Kahr's (and K's too I guess). On the C series, they use a solid MIM piece, and of course it does not rotate. The original idea that Justin had was to make the pin as strong as possible. Kahr states that the pin is very tough, and is formed with grinding operations. The lever is added, and the retainer holds them together. Someplace along the production cycle... the MIM part was developed. It proves to be at least as good as the three piece unit. You never hear of a failure.... FWIW, Colt has been using MIM slide stops since the early 80's (or IC perhaps, then changing to MIM). Most parts of that nature are not machined fully but formed, then finish machined. Take a close look at the checkering on your lever... and under hte lever and you'll see parting marks someplace in almost every part (or at least the one's I've examined).

They rotate not by accident, but by happenstance.

Thanks for that great explanation! MIM parts have a bad reputation in the firearms community, but much of the animosity is undeserved. MIM is one of the most highly developed metal forming processes in use today. My brother works in the metal forming industry (not firearms related) as a QC and production manager and states that MIM, when done properly, yields exceptionally tough components. Folks have the perception that metal molding as used in firearms production is a cheap process that yields inferior components, but Ruger has been investment casting Blackhawk and Redhawk revolver frames for decades, and nobody ever claimed those frames were 'weak'.

[muggsy]

+1 to your comments on MIM parts. MIM definitely has it's place in firearms manufacturing.

[jocko]

ur right

Thanks for that great explanation! MIM parts have a bad reputation in the firearms community, but much of the animosity is undeserved. MIM is one of the most highly developed metal forming processes in use today. My brother works in the metal forming industry (not firearms related) as a QC and production manager and states that MIM, when done properly, yields exceptionally tough components. Folks have the perception that metal molding as used in firearms production is a cheap process that yields inferior components, but Ruger has been investment casting Blackhawk and Redhawk revolver frames for decades, and nobody ever claimed those frames were 'weak'.

there and the bad rep MIM parts have been given is by ignorant peole oike myslef years back that didn't understand what MIM realy was and how it works in the industry of PARTS by any maker. Hell of alot of MIM in the automobile today. they hav ethe bugs out of MIM today, not sure there was realy any bugs either but words travel fast in the industry and if Myayob or what ever his name is came out and said MIM sucks, . Wow, it wold spread like butter on bread.

Like CJB stated what do we call investment casting that Ruger has used successflly for years. Its MIM only dressed up to be different.. Just sayin

[jocko]

I have readhere that sometimes a trigger barwill stick due to the mag wellactually rubbing against the trigger bar. It is rare but it has happened and it is simple to check out to. take the slide off, insert the mag and look down inside as u pull the trigger to see how the trigger bar and agazine relate to each utter. They should be waing at each other as they go by each utter,not trying to molest east utter. Just sayin

When I see a nice gal some where, my trigger bar seems to stick somewhat, but when I see a muzzy, the trigger bar just works perfect.

[dorangolv]

"Finally got my gun running after 950+ rounds fired. I'm up around 1150 now."

Went out Sunday 12/22. Fired 50 rds Federal 230 gr FMJ and 100 rds Remington UMC 230 FMJ.

1150
+150
1,300

Had some issues with the Remington. Had a few failures to strip the top cartridge as well as failure to feed. 3 rounds never left the magazine. 5 rounds got jammed at a 45 deg angle in front of the chamber opening. :/
Already checked and created a bevel in the slide stripper because it didn't have one. May need to go back and make it a larger bevel. I'd rather take too little and find out later I need to take more than to take too much and find it's ruined.

Every round that was chambered was fired. No more failure to go into battery issues which is what I really struggled with before this fix.

Crazy accurate gun!
Tossed out a tennis ball and shot at it until it was about 40 feet away. Even a dead tennis ball full of holes can bounce pretty high.

[dorangolv]

Drove my Kahr out to the desert...

Spent some quality time in the desert with my 13 year old daughter shooting at stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLWi7R_5og

[muggsy]

You look a lot like me only handsomer.