I joined the broken striker club

[2tango2]

PPU and PMC seem to run best in my CW380

[pr42]

I own a CW380, serial number RH8972, which I purchased last summer. It has had a good few hundred rounds through it (haven't kept count), and it is working fine. The occasional case of the slide locking back before the magazine is empty, but mostly ok. Obviously I would be concerned about the possibility of my striker failing randomly (and I'll certainly be keeping a closer eye on it from here on out), but a couple of things occur to me regarding this thread.

1. There is danger in extrapolating from small datasets. Yes, a number of people here have had problems, I'm not denying that at all (or minimizing the hassle caused to the owners), but there's a chance this could just be a case of "internet hysteria". This is one of those things that tends to happen, particularly with online communities. The internet is a place where people can easily find others who are having the same issue as themselves (be it guns, or cars, or personal health, etc). When you see one, or two, or three other people posting "Yeah I had the same thing happen to me", then it's easy to extrapolate that to be a "trend". But that doesn't mean it is actually a trend; it could just be a self-selecting sample group that is artificially amplifying the issue via our own little echo chamber. It certainly doesn't help when the company in question doesn't seem responsive, but that leads me onto the second observation...

2. These days you will very rarely see companies openly admit to something being wrong with one of their products, for one simple reason: It opens them up to litigation. If a company admits anything, even if they fix it and then apologise in retrospect, that can be seen as admission of negligence or wrongdoing, so they dance around (sometimes to a seemingly ludicrous degree) avoiding actually admitting anything is wrong. This isn't due to any deliberate slipperiness on their part (most of the time); they are normal people like you and me, but they have been told by their lawyers that if they say anything in public that could be construed as an admission of a problem, then that opens them up to lawsuits. And once that admission is "out there", they *will* lose in court, it's like open season for the lawyers.

3. As for the possibility of a recall, that would probably be a last resort for any company, since it is most likely VERY expensive for them to undertake such an operation, because instead of replacing the failing products as they come up from individual customers, now they have to replace ALL of them, pro-actively. There would also be a much bigger hit to their public image, as this would now be "official", with press releases in the permanent record, and possibly impact on their insurance, and news stories everywhere. Recalls are mostly used for SAFETY issues, whereby the failure in question could cause serious injury or loss of life. Like the Springfield Armory XD-S recall, that was related to the gun actually firing when shouldn't have - obviously a potentially lethal safety issue. But a bad batch of strikers isn't going to kill anyone (well, not directly, anyway) - all that happens is that the gun doesn't go bang, that never killed anyone. Of course if you are using the gun in a self defense scenario and it malfunctions then THAT is pretty darn serious, but it's more indirect, if you catch my drift.

Look at it this way: If you were a company like Kahr, what would you rather have - a thread on a forum site like this one where a few people rant about their problems (and the thread eventually fades away into the archives of that one site), or a formal recall with news stories in multiple publications that is now in the permanent public record? If there is indeed a problem with a bad batch of strikers, then you can bet they are hoping they can fix it with just good old fashioned customer service, and also hoping it all dies down naturally as the bad batch of strikers works itself out through the system of replacement. It's actually a reasonable approach, when you think about it, even though it is undeniably frustrating when you can see there is a problem (e.g. the people who have had three failed strikers are no doubt convinced there is something going on here), and yet the company continues to say they aren't aware of anything. Give them a break, it's not their fault, it's the fault of the legal system that we have in place today. Acting like a real person, and just talking openly about such things, is an invitation to lawsuits. Sad, but the way of the world these days.

[gun papa]

I love the gun, first off. I would love for Kahr to release a new/improved striker. I would buy it. No rants here. regarding data points: I have never seen any firearm experience this many striker/firing pin failures with the exception of the CZ52. Never.

I would love to know Kahr is working on it. Having a gun fire when it shouldn't is obviously dangerous, ala XD, but I think having a firearm downright break at the time of need puts lives at stake too. Understand that many people, my Wife and I included use/purchase these guns primarily for self defense.

The gun has great potential. I am firmly in the cheering section. It does however have a terrible weak spot that I yearn to see resolved.

[topgun1953]

ditto what gun papa said. I love shooting my P380 and would love to see an improved striker. If you look at the current part, the metal is quite thin in the spot which it breaks. I look at it and wonder how it holds up to even a few rounds.

[pcv57]

I agree that forums can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions sometimes. If you're happy you tell one person, if you're unhappy you tell everyone. However, this is about Kahr doing the right thing. If there is a known problem with these strikers (my P380 is at Kahr right now due to light strikes, RA serial #) Kahr can do a recall and get some negative press or they can wait for someone to lose their life due to a striker failure and see what the press is like. They can simply call GM or Toyota to find out

[pr42]

I agree that forums can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions sometimes. If you're happy you tell one person, if you're unhappy you tell everyone. However, this is about Kahr doing the right thing. If there is a known problem with these strikers (my P380 is at Kahr right now due to light strikes, RA serial #) Kahr can do a recall and get some negative press or they can wait for someone to lose their life due to a striker failure and see what the press is like. They can simply call GM or Toyota to find out

Yeah, to be clear I am in no way associated with Kahr (it occurred to me that my username, with "pr" in it, might lead some people to assume that I'm some kind of public relations shill). I'm just an ordinary citizen like all of you good people. My earlier post was just a general comment on some possible reasons why you don't see companies just coming out and discussing these things openly, like any normal person would. It's a legal minefield out there for companies when it comes to making public comments regarding, well, just about anything these days. Anything they admit with regard to faulty strikers could be seen by a court as an admission of fault, which would open them up to lawsuits that they probably would lose, since their "admission" is already in the public record. I know it sounds absurd, but that's our legal system - it does lead to some silly behavior.

And, even if there is a problem, my other comment about product recalls still holds true: This is not a safety issue, at least not in the most direct sense. OF COURSE, I realize that if your gun doesn't go off when you need it to then that can be a real safety issue, but can you see that it's more indirect - a gun NOT going off when it should is not the same as a gun going off when it shouldn't.

Of course, that's assuming there is actually a broader problem here (e.g. the "bad batch" theory), and it's not just the "forum echo chamber" effect. It's true that people are more likely to come onto a forum to talk about stuff they think is wrong, than when everything is just peachy. Who searches out the Kahr forum just to say "Welp, my striker's still working fine!". People who are having a problem will probably google for others having similar problems, so it stands to reason that if there are 10 people all having the same issue, then they will very likely all find the same forum thread and congregate here. So then you have 10 people all saying there is a problem, but in reality it might just be those 10 people, out of many thousands of guns sold... which might just be a fraction of 1% of the total... which might be completely normal in terms of statistical failures. So you could see how this might be a little confusing to Kahr, if they know that they aren't getting anything out of the ordinary in terms of number of complaints, and yet there's this forum thread where "everybody" seems to be talking about it. Just one person making a noise can be amplified out of all proportion, due to the forum chorus effect - the first person has an issue, so they post about it, and just by the laws of statistics there are probably at least one or two other people out there who also had the same kind of issue, so they chime in, and bada bing, there you have it: A "trend". I don't know, I'm just saying it's another possibility. And again, I'm not trying to minimize anybody's issues here - it's quite possible there IS an issue, I'm just thinking out loud about how things aren't always what they might seem. If my CW380's stiker breaks suddenly then you can bet I'll add my voice to the chorus!

[topgun1953]

I agree that forums can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions sometimes. If you're happy you tell one person, if you're unhappy you tell everyone. However, this is about Kahr doing the right thing. If there is a known problem with these strikers (my P380 is at Kahr right now due to light strikes, RA serial #) Kahr can do a recall and get some negative press or they can wait for someone to lose their life due to a striker failure and see what the press is like. They can simply call GM or Toyota to find out

when you contact Kahr, express your concern for the number of striker failures that are cropping up. If enough of us do so, then perhaps there will be changes. They might be working on the situation right now but we have no way of knowing.

[Chaplain]

I recently added a p380 to my collection. It is a good intermediate step between my .32 Seecamp and My Kahr PM9. The striker issue on the 380 causes some concern.

My p380 was so 'tight' when I got it out of the box that I could only get the slide off the frame with great difficulty. Shooting 300 rounds has loosened things up a bit. But, it is still 'tight'. One thing I notice is that on range session of 100 rounds of Winchester White Box or (gasp!) Tula steel case ammo, I get an occasional FTFire. The primers are dented, but don't quite go off. This has NEVER happened with the carry ammo (Hornady Critical Defense FXT).

Last trip to the range I had two rounds that did not fire the first strike towards the end of the 100 rounds of the Tula steel case el-cheapo ammo. After reading here about broken strikers I decided to detail strip the slide just to inspect. I had done this once before just to make sure everything was clean. When I had everything apart I found two small brass chips on the white cloth under the work area. The point is I had very thoroughly cleaned the slide (without disassembly) twice since I used brass cased ammo. Also, the chips looked curved. They were to small and too thin for me to determine if curve was about the same as the main body of the striker.

A close examination of the striker showed some burnishing or polishing on the forward bottom of the main body. I don't recall that from the last disassembly, but I wasn't looking for it.

Hypothesis: perhaps brass shavings are finding their way into the striker channel (perhaps around the extractor?) and this is having two effects:
1. causing an occasional light strike, causing FTFire.
2. this debris in the striker channel my be inducing dynamic stress on the striker, eventually causing the part to fail in some circumstances.

There may be nothing 'wrong' with the part, or the design, other than everything is to really tight tolerances.

I cleaned everything out really well. I used a Q-Tip chucked in a drill with some Mother's Mag Wheel polish to get the striker channel really clean. There may have been a few more flecks of things in the cotton when I pulled it out.

I'll put another 100 rounds down range when I get the chance, and see if I have any more light strikes, and then detail strip again and see if there is any debris accumulation in the striker channel.

It seems to me that some reports of multiple striker breaks in the same gun indicates that the broken striker is a symptom of some other problem. Either something else is out of spec.; or, something else is causing stress on the part.

[topgun1953]

I think it's the way I pull the trigger. . Kahr actually replaced the slide after the second break. After I got mine back after its third break, I put about 150 rounds through it And detailed stripped the slide. I noticed some wear where the striker spacer 'straddles' the neck. I'm going to try to keep an eye on that. Gun papa, any word from Kahr on your's?

[gun papa]

I am calling to send mine back to Kahr. After repair, nothing but light strikes. I am done trying to figure it out. Let Kahr fix it.

[BEARDOG]

I recently added a p380 to my collection. It is a good intermediate step between my .32 Seecamp and My Kahr PM9. The striker issue on the 380 causes some concern.

My p380 was so 'tight' when I got it out of the box that I could only get the slide off the frame with great difficulty. Shooting 300 rounds has loosened things up a bit. But, it is still 'tight'. One thing I notice is that on range session of 100 rounds of Winchester White Box or (gasp!) Tula steel case ammo, I get an occasional FTFire. The primers are dented, but don't quite go off. This has NEVER happened with the carry ammo (Hornady Critical Defense FXT).

Last trip to the range I had two rounds that did not fire the first strike towards the end of the 100 rounds of the Tula steel case el-cheapo ammo. After reading here about broken strikers I decided to detail strip the slide just to inspect. I had done this once before just to make sure everything was clean. When I had everything apart I found two small brass chips on the white cloth under the work area. The point is I had very thoroughly cleaned the slide (without disassembly) twice since I used brass cased ammo. Also, the chips looked curved. They were to small and too thin for me to determine if curve was about the same as the main body of the striker.

A close examination of the striker showed some burnishing or polishing on the forward bottom of the main body. I don't recall that from the last disassembly, but I wasn't looking for it.

Hypothesis: perhaps brass shavings are finding their way into the striker channel (perhaps around the extractor?) and this is having two effects:
1. causing an occasional light strike, causing FTFire.
2. this debris in the striker channel my be inducing dynamic stress on the striker, eventually causing the part to fail in some circumstances.

There may be nothing 'wrong' with the part, or the design, other than everything is to really tight tolerances.

I cleaned everything out really well. I used a Q-Tip chucked in a drill with some Mother's Mag Wheel polish to get the striker channel really clean. There may have been a few more flecks of things in the cotton when I pulled it out.

I'll put another 100 rounds down range when I get the chance, and see if I have any more light strikes, and then detail strip again and see if there is any debris accumulation in the striker channel.

It seems to me that some reports of multiple striker breaks in the same gun indicates that the broken striker is a symptom of some other problem. Either something else is out of spec.; or, something else is causing stress on the part.

Great first post Chaplain.

I bolded what you wrote about the burnishing on the bottom of the striker because that would be an indication of what I have been thinking maybe happening with some of these Kahr .380's.

I have been thinking about what another member pointed out sometime ago. When he posted about his Kahr .380. He noticed when he dry fired his. (empty chamber, but with a loaded mag) The striker hits the top round with enough force to slide the cartridge forward almost half way out of the mag.

I would hypothesis;
That the way the striker cocking "lobe or foot" is hitting the cartridge rim it would act to, and could cause issues just as you and others have posted.
1. Slowing down the forward travel (light primer strikes)
2. It seems to me it could also impart an uneven or tilted pressure to the front, bottom area of the striker pushing down inside the channel.(Burnishing marks) This cockeyed motion over time could cause stress and misalignment with the firing pin and hole. (broken strikers)

I have 4 Kahrs. 2-9mms, a 45 and a .380. The .380 is the only one that does this hitting of the top round in the mag, and that just doesn't seem like a good design to me. My CW380 runs 100%, but I only have maybe 300 rds through it so far. I have to admit I am a getting a little worried about the continued reliability of it after reading so many reports of broken strikers. I have not had mine apart yet to clean the channel but when the weather breaks and I get a few hundred rds more through it I will take it apart to see what can be seen, if anything is happening on mine.
I hope I am wrong and the strikers on the vast majority are never an issue. As it is a great shooting little gun and I really like it a lot.

[Chaplain]

Further investigation

Great first post Chaplain.

I bolded what you wrote about the burnishing on the bottom of the striker because that would be an indication of what I have been thinking maybe happening with some of these Kahr .380's.

I have been thinking about what another member pointed out sometime ago. When he posted about his Kahr .380. He noticed when he dry fired his. (empty chamber, but with a loaded mag) The striker hits the top round with enough force to slide the cartridge forward almost half way out of the mag.

I would hypothesis;
That the way the striker cocking "lobe or foot" is hitting the cartridge rim it would act to, and could cause issues just as you and others have posted.
1. Slowing down the forward travel (light primer strikes)
2. It seems to me it could also impart an uneven or tilted pressure to the front, bottom area of the striker pushing down inside the channel.(Burnishing marks) This cockeyed motion over time could cause stress and misalignment with the firing pin and hole. (broken strikers)

I have 4 Kahrs. 2-9mms, a 45 and a .380. The .380 is the only one that does this hitting of the top round in the mag, and that just doesn't seem like a good design to me. My CW380 runs 100%, but I only have maybe 300 rds through it so far. I have to admit I am a getting a little worried about the continued reliability of it after reading so many reports of broken strikers. I have not had mine apart yet to clean the channel but when the weather breaks and I get a few hundred rds more through it I will take it apart to see what can be seen, if anything is happening on mine.
I hope I am wrong and the strikers on the vast majority are never an issue. As it is a great shooting little gun and I really like it a lot.

What! I can't believe that! - but then I checked. BE VERY VERY CAREFUL IF YOU TRY THIS AT HOME.

I too 'dry fired' my P380 with EMPTY CHAMBER and a full magazine. Sure enough, the striker cocking "lobe or foot" is hitting the cartridge rim. I could not see marks on the nickeled case of the Hornady Critical Defense round in the mag. But, It moved every time, and quite a bit too!

So, step two: I put a once fired brass case in the next position in the mag. Behold! marks appeared! and in was more than just a few thousandths that I envisioned. The striker 'foot' is catching the brass almost down to the primer!! WOW! I'm amazed the thing fires at all.

More experimentation:

I load my carry ammo by:
1. Lock the slide back.
2. Insert full mag.
3. Depress Slide Release so the slide slams home chambering a round.
4. Remove Mag and top off
5. Reinsert Mag.

When I remove the mag to top it off I find that the next round is consistently pretty far forward, but still retained by the magazine lips. Note that at this point the striker is still in the 'pre cocked' position (i.e. the gun has not be fired). By experimentation it seems that just removing a round from the mag (no matter how slowly you do it causes the next round to snap into place a little forward of being all the way back (fully engaged in the mag lips).

Is it possible that the movement forward of the next round in the magazine is consistent in normal firing operation?

I will remove and examine a magazine after every fired round to observe next time I am at the range. Also, I will immediately collect once fired brass and examine it for marks! Nickeled brass (being harder) does not seem to take a mark. Plain brass seems that it does.

It seems that the Kahr recommended procedure for loading (Lock slide back, insert mag, press slide release) may be very very important.

Also, If I am loading like I have been (tucking an extra round in to top off the mag, and even tapping the mag to seat the rounds all the way back in the mag) it seem I am defeating a normal cycle of operation.

Also, with an empty gun, I used a pen lite to look at the striker cocking "lobe or foot" before (can't see it up the mag well) and after pulling the trigger (can just barely see it).

I can't figure out how to measure just yet, But it seems like the striker cocking "lobe or foot" does not impinge much into the area of the mag well. It will only hit a cartridge that is all the way back against the back of the mag. It appears to me that in 'normal' operation, using the Kahr loading procedure, (or normal fireing) that the next round in the mag is normally positioned far enough forward by the previous round being stripped out by the forward motion of the slide that the striker cocking "lobe or foot" does not hit the next round unless:
1. Some body like me manually seats the round all the way back in the mag; or,
2. Some other action (unusual) prevents the follow on round from moving forward from the all the way back position.

I verified this with the following procedure.
1. Chambered a round using the Kahr procedure (lock slide back, insert mag, depress slide release.
2. Remove mag and inspect position of the next round. (if yours is like mine the nose of the next round will be lined up with the front of the mag.
WITH THE MAG OUT OF THE GUN EJECT THE CHAMBERED ROUND, verify no round in chamber twice more, and ease the slide forward
3. without repositioning the next round in the mag, insert the mag and DRY FIRE.
4. remove the mag and the next round has not moved.

It may be that I induced the occasional light strike by habitually reseating the next round in the mag all the way back when I pulled the mag to inspect. Now that I know what to look for, I will at least know what I am looking at.

This may or may not explain broken strikers and light strikes. It may or may not be a partial explanation for some of them. It may well explain the burnishing I observed on my striker. It is going to change how I top off a mag and slide it into a p380 with a round chambered.

[Pteridine]

In looking at the damaged part and considering that Kahr claims dry firing is acceptable, I am trying to find an explanation for broken strikers. I have yet to take the CW380 apart but it appears that the striker should be in a channel of some sort. When discharged, the shoulder of the striker should take the shock and the delicate [and poorly designed; Kahr take note] firing pin should only be stressed by striking a primer. If the radius on the firing pin at the failure point was such that it was not clearing the relief counterbore but was striking it with the radius at its base, then undue stress would be put on the striker at the base of the firing pin and it would eventually fail. I think Kahr has figured this out which is why some claim to be getting new slides, likely with larger relief counterbores that account for the radius at the firing pin base. Another possibility is that grit, grime, and machining debris are the culprits which prevent the shoulders from hitting first and stress the firing pin. Was there a batch of slightly out-of-spec strikers? Was the radius at the base of the pin even considered in a go-no go gauge?
The CW380 is a new piece for me as I upgraded from a Kel-Tec P3AT. The Kel-Tec seemed almost disposable compared to the Kahr but it did not require a 200 round break-in and was completely reliable while I owned it. The thing I find disturbing is that the Kahrs seem to need to be cleaned and lubed, immediately on receipt. This is completely unacceptable from a manufacturer of high quality pistols. They make a point of showing how they start with a billet and mill most of it away. To do that much work and then leave shavings and grit in the finished product is a false economy and poor QC. For what Kahr charges, they should easily be able to completely clean and lightly lube every pistol before it leaves the factory.
As has been said before, we likely won't get a confession from Kahr. Many will not ever fire 500 rounds of .380 through them and the statistics will prove Kahr correct; few failures. I plan to strip and clean the pistol and if I can find my bottle of Prussian blue, paint the end of the striker, reassemble, dry fire for a while, strip it and look for wear marks.

[topgun1953]

Good thoughtful analysis. Keep us posted, please. I think I am the only one that got a new slide and then it still broke.

[pcv57]

These are great analyses but why are we, as the consumer, having to do this? I would imagine that the manufacturing process and material is the same so why are some guns plagued by continual problems? Again, it seems if you got a good one, you're ok but if you don't the problems continue. Unfortunately, there isn't another .380 on the market that I want to own. Still waiting for mine to come back from Kahr. They have had it for over two weeks and it still hasn't been looked at. I guess their repair department is really busy