CW380 misfire / click no bang issue

[thegrimdog22]

When chambering a round in my cw380, I notice that the next round in the mag is shifted forward too. I am guessing that when the bullet it chambered, it pulls the next bullet in the mag with it somewhat.

This is my first Kahr firearm, and it has been nothing but trouble for me. I might as well have Kahr Arms on speed dial. Got the gun brand new and it wouldn't even chamber the first round when I went to the range. Called Kahr and they had me ship my gun in. Got it back the next week and their "fix" was a very unprofessional hack job to my brand new gun. After having to take pics and sending it back in again, they dressed up the original grind marks even though I claimed that a slide this out of spec should have been replaced in the first place. They were informed that at most 15 rounds were put through the gun before it was back in their possession. There is now a piece of metal with a crack next to the slide release and they said that would just be fixed with a file, IF is ship it back to them for a 3rd time. Needless to say, FedEx and Kahr have had my firearm longer than I have. Now they wont return my emails or phone calls including the gunsmith himself and Melanie.

I understand that products do fail even though I highly doubt this firearm was test fired since I couldn't even get more than one consecutive shot off while forcing the slide forward. The way the company treats customers says a lot, and this is why I went on this rant. I want people to know what they are getting into when dealing with this company. I know for a fact that this type of behavior would never be seen from a reputable company such as Sig. I love the size of the gun as well as the smooth trigger, but this will now be the last Kahr that I own. I did my homework before buying the gun, and heard nothing but good things from them.

Sorry about the rant guys. I am just upset with their lack of support and really want people like me who are trying new brands to be informed. The only good thing I can give the company is that they have around a 1 week turn around period.

If I get around to it, I will upload my images of their repair quality and maybe even make a YouTube video. I don't want this type of service to go unheard.

[erichard]

The striker indeed catches the top round in the magazine, drop your mag and clear the gun, insert a mag loaded with a dummy round and pull the trigger. Now before racking the slide try to remove the mag, the round will be slid far enough ahead that you have to physically pull on it to remove it and when it comes out the round will be tipped up.

This does seem to be the acid test to show they are not being pulled forward by the previous round being chambered and dragging on the next round in the mag as it moves to the top. I did this without a snap cap (cocked with empty chamber), and the top round moved forward almost 1/4 inch.

The question is, is this by design to get that top round slightly forward and make chambering easy for the next cycle, or is this an undesired phenomenon that we should try to rectify? I take it that it's not due to the momentum of the striker hitting the gun as a whole that sends the round forward and is rather a direct contact of the striker tab (see http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/...LubePoints.jpg just above #7 arrow on the lube diagram...not sure of it's official name) hitting the top rear of the top round in the mag? That would seem to be an odd design wouldn't it, since that striker needs to keep moving and hit the primer sufficiently.

Anybody have an idea whether this is by design or whether we should be fixing this?

One side effect is that when the bullet is pulled forward, the tip is no longer supported by the bullet below it, and the round is more likely to tip downwards, increasing the likelihood of nosediving. If the bullet is fully back in the magazine, the bullet is aimed in an upward trajectory, which helps avoid nosedives.

[erichard]

OK, so I just redid the test but marked the rear of the top round with a sharpie so as to see if it got dinged by the striker tab. Sure enough, there is a very minimal etching at the very top of the rim of the casing of that round, like a butter knife had scratched there (that thin). No other mark was noticed. Since it was so minimal, I'm guessing that it wouldn't take much filing of that striker tab to eliminate this, assuming that's desireable. Seems so marginal a scrape that it can't be by design, IMHO.

I suppose the other hypothesis could be that the mag is situated a hair too high by the mag release. Maybe so? Probably wouldn't take much to correct that, but maybe it's not a fix because to do it, you'd need to drop the mag below where the pickup rail needs the mag to be to engage the top round and chamber it.

Perhaps it's true on some Kahrs and not others due to slight variance in manufacturing from one piece to another.

If anybody does the test (empty chamber, loaded mag, to see if top round is pulled forward on dry firing) and doesn't notice the round being pulled forward, it would be interesting to know. It would also being interesting to see if those folks, who didn't notice it, had trouble free Kahrs vs the rest of us. Perhaps this is a key aspect of the problems.a

Edit, later that night: Tried it with an empty shell in the chamber (like a snap cap I suppose), and the top round in the mag didn't move forward nearly as much, maybe a 1/16 inch or a little more. So it seems the firing pin of the striker is limited in forward movement due to hitting the casing, which then stops the striker tab from pushing the top round in the mag a quarter inch forward (limits movement to around 1/16th, which is tolerable). Lesson is, don't rely on testing with chamber empty because it's much different that with a round in the chamber, which would simulate real world conditions.

[bobbyh]

When chambering a round in my cw380, I notice that the next round in the mag is shifted forward too. I am guessing that when the bullet it chambered, it pulls the next bullet in the mag with it somewhat.

This is my first Kahr firearm, and it has been nothing but trouble for me. I might as well have Kahr Arms on speed dial. Got the gun brand new and it wouldn't even chamber the first round when I went to the range. Called Kahr and they had me ship my gun in. Got it back the next week and their "fix" was a very unprofessional hack job to my brand new gun. After having to take pics and sending it back in again, they dressed up the original grind marks even though I claimed that a slide this out of spec should have been replaced in the first place. They were informed that at most 15 rounds were put through the gun before it was back in their possession. There is now a piece of metal with a crack next to the slide release and they said that would just be fixed with a file, IF is ship it back to them for a 3rd time. Needless to say, FedEx and Kahr have had my firearm longer than I have. Now they wont return my emails or phone calls including the gunsmith himself and Melanie.

I understand that products do fail even though I highly doubt this firearm was test fired since I couldn't even get more than one consecutive shot off while forcing the slide forward. The way the company treats customers says a lot, and this is why I went on this rant. I want people to know what they are getting into when dealing with this company. I know for a fact that this type of behavior would never be seen from a reputable company such as Sig. I love the size of the gun as well as the smooth trigger, but this will now be the last Kahr that I own. I did my homework before buying the gun, and heard nothing but good things from them.

Sorry about the rant guys. I am just upset with their lack of support and really want people like me who are trying new brands to be informed. The only good thing I can give the company is that they have around a 1 week turn around period.

If I get around to it, I will upload my images of their repair quality and maybe even make a YouTube video. I don't want this type of service to go unheard.

I know your frustration all too well. One of my problems when I first was having FTF issues was a rather large burr on the inside of the slide. All they did to fix the burr was to file it down which left the area sharp and looking ugly. I was surprised by this repair. I had to send it in a second time before the FTF issue went away.

Now I am battling light primer strikes as mentioned in this post and it's back to Kahr a third and most likely last time. If this doesn't fix it I'm done with my CW380 no matter how great it feels/shoots for me.

I know you are giving up on Kahr and I can't blame you. However; I have a CM9 with 900+ rounds through it and it has had zero malfunctions. Perhaps you can give one a try down the road if you are in the market for a tiny 9mm. I just think Kahr needs to make some additional effort to modify the design of their 380 pistols to eliminate common issues we see all over the board.

[ulflyer]

I've not read the previous 3 pages of this thread so maybe this has been mentioned already; when I got my CW380 I did the fluff and buff to include sanding down the follower of the mag, grinding down the lower end of the ramp to keep the mag/bullet from touching, and slight sanding of the the slide release. Never had any problems and have put hundreds of WWB thru it.

I can well understand the frustration of the above guys. Hard to understand why a company doesn't fix obvious problems before they leave the factory. Certainly they need better quality control.

[thegrimdog22]

I was actually on the fence with the 380 until I shot the PM9, which basically sold the gun. I want to like the guns, but they really left a bad taste in my mouth.

I do agree with the quality control. Even the polymer frame has burs in many spots on the inside. Seems like the polishing you did helped, but we should never have to do something like that to a brand new gun. It's just too bad because they sure have one heck of a good double action trigger.

These were the pictures of me trying to shoot the gun when I first got it brand new. Multiple types of 380 ammo were used to verify problem:

http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/th...0CW380%20Range

And this was after they "reworked slide."

http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/th...After%20Return

The wear marks right next to the striker hole are apparently normal according to the gunsmith and not from the initial feeding issue, with only 25 rounds through the gun...

As for the bullets shifting in the mag, I am not crazy about it, but it does not seem to be an issue chambering the next round. I notice it when I chamber a round and go to put a sixth round in the mag after. Little harder to drop the mag.

[ulflyer]

Grimdog, wish you lived in my area. You dont happen to live in NC do you? I'd love to do a polish on yours to see it actually made a difference. My 380 and 9mm both got the treatment, but the 45acp was my first and I've had it for some years and never done a thing to it. I'm not sure this forum was in existent then, but it sure does have a wealth of good information in the tech section.

As to the bullet cocking up slightly and being slide forward a bit, I think thats normal on all of them. At least it is on my three.

[tigman250]

Edit, later that night: Tried it with an empty shell in the chamber (like a snap cap I suppose), and the top round in the mag didn't move forward nearly as much, maybe a 1/16 inch or a little more. So it seems the firing pin of the striker is limited in forward movement due to hitting the casing, which then stops the striker tab from pushing the top round in the mag a quarter inch forward (limits movement to around 1/16th, which is tolerable). Lesson is, don't rely on testing with chamber empty because it's much different that with a round in the chamber, which would simulate real world conditions.

It may contact less but it is still contacting, this may be some of the issues with the broken strikers, the striker is designed to stop when it hits the primer, by meeting resistance on the back side it may be fatiguing the striker over time.

[erichard]

It may contact less but it is still contacting, this may be some of the issues with the broken strikers, the striker is designed to stop when it hits the primer, by meeting resistance on the back side it may be fatiguing the striker over time.

Yes, it's definitely still contacting the top round in the mag, and the only reason that round doesn't go farther forward is because the round in the chamber stops the striker from going any farther. It's an odd design. It is possible that they designed it this way on purpose to unlock the top two rounds, which tend to link together at the back of the casings when tilted upwards in the mag. By unlocking the rounds, it can move forward more easily when it's time to chamber with the next cycle. However, if it goes too far, it is no longer supported by the round underneath, and can nosedive, especially in the extended mag.

A lot going on in a tiny space in that Kahr 380, and it all has to time perfectly with very little margin for error.

[tigman250]

Yes, it's definitely still contacting the top round in the mag, and the only reason that round doesn't go farther forward is because the round in the chamber stops the striker from going any farther. It's an odd design. It is possible that they designed it this way on purpose to unlock the top two rounds, which tend to link together at the back of the casings when tilted upwards in the mag. By unlocking the rounds, it can move forward more easily when it's time to chamber with the next cycle. However, if it goes too far, it is no longer supported by the round underneath, and can nosedive, especially in the extended mag.

A lot going on in a tiny space in that Kahr 380, and it all has to time perfectly with very little margin for error.

Anything is possible, but I can't imagine incorporating striker interference into a design, just asking for trouble IMHO.

[erichard]

Anything is possible, but I can't imagine incorporating striker interference into a design, just asking for trouble IMHO.

Yeah, the only reason I wonder is because apparently all the Kahr's do this (?). They must be aware of the issue I would think.

[rickbsgu]

Yeah, I have a hard time believing that's by design. The tolerances would have to be crazy tight for that to work consistently.

If it were mine, I think I'd get another striker and try relieving the clearance. If that worked, do the same to the original. Never hurts to have another striker, anyway.

[erichard]

If it were mine

Are you implying when you do the test on yours without anything chambered that your top round in the mag doesn't move forward? I just got the sense everyone's Kahr had movement forward. Mine was nearly a quarter inch forward without a snapcap type chambered.

If nearly everyone's moves forward, then the height of that tab is by design and may by design affect when the trigger breaks in the striker fire cycle. I was a little concerned it might break too early if I ground down the tab. I may yet get a second striker, but as it is my gun is working 100% for the last 100 rounds, so I'm reluctant to fool with success.

Off topic, my gun now even works with WWB from top to bottom round in the mag. I got it working so well by marginally grinding the slope of the feed ramp from where the bullet hits the ramp (even in a nose dive) to the lip of the chamber (while still maintaining nearly all original support for the chambered casing). The feed ramp also has a near mirror polish. The only bullet that doesn't work is the Lehigh XP in the top two slots of the mag, and that is due to the narrow asymmetry of the feed ramp which does not support the "X" on the right side of the feed ramp (where it jams) if in the "X" rather than "+" orientation. My issues with the 7 round mag may have been related to the striker generated forward movement, but I no longer use the extended mag.

I'd be interested how many folks do not have a gun where the top round moves forward (and significantly if the chamber is empty). Maybe we should just make another thread to ask that question, maybe poll it, since it gets lost in the discussion here.

[erichard]

Thanks very much. Interesting, you didn't take off the top (or bottom when upside down) of that foot or tab, but took off the front of it. Makes sense after seeing the other Kahr slides. I wonder if this means your striker isn't pulled back as far after racking the slide, which would mean there is less force going forward when the striker is released, which might affect the force hitting the primer. Just my mind wondering of the consequences. I'd want to know the ramifications before doing this.

On the other hand, if your gun has no light strikes, then maybe cutting back that foot optimizes the striker pin's forward force such that it is less likely to break, since it is jarred less forcefully with each shot. Maybe that's why we are having striker pin breakage.

If this is peculiar to only some 380's, then I do think it has some bearing on the nosedive issue, particularly in the 7 round mag, because when that round is forward enough, there is simply no support for the tip of that top round (as opposed to the round when situated toward the rear as intended.)

[erichard]

Well, if you're not having light strikes...., the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I may have to try this mod unless someone here grabs me by the shoulders and talks me out of it. Modifying your gun is like a woman going for plastic surgery... the first time or two may work in her favor, but can she stop there? Always tempting to do more.

PS I'm in Bucks Co, so same snow here.