Hello, and new to me CW45 problems

[Bawanna]

That's what happened with any new frame from Kahr. Can't ship direct back to owner, has to go to a dealer and be reregistered like a new gun.

[jocko]

I had always wondered about that Jocko, what about all the Kahr owners that had their frames replaced? Did they stamp the same serial number on the frame? I know here in California if a new serial number is issued your dealer has to receive, log and re-dros your firearm to you.

kahr doesnot stamp new frames with old nymbers. if utters do, then that is a good thing, I just never heard of it being done. My impression was the gun lives and dies with the serial number, but I stand corrected if utter gun makers do that.

[CJB]

Colonel.... please do not use the word REGISTER in conjunction with a TRANSFER

Totally different thing. If you bother to check, the GCA'68 specifically ALLOWS a manufacturer to send a replacement frame, with new numbers to the purchaser who sent the firearm for them for repair.

DO NOT confuse the policy of some, or perhaps the majority, of manufacturers with what is allowed by law.

KEL-TEC for one, WILL send a newly manufactured frame/receiver, with new numbers, directly to the individual, and there are numerous accounts of that, with surprising documentation to back it up, on Kel-Tec's web forum. H&K and Ruger have both replaced handguns outright to me, without FFL in the past. This portion of the GCA'68 has not changed.

Some years ago, I quoted the actual section of the law that specifically ALLOWS the practice. Unfortunately, our archives here don't go back that far.

Why do SOME/MOST manufactures choose to go the FFL route? Two reasons. One is liability. You cannot get some unauthorized individual sending in a firearm that is clearly defective, perhaps thrown away, and getting an operable firearm in return. IOW, hey buddy I'll take that POS off your hands for nada, and send it in and get it "fixed" and have an off the grid replacement. Legal, yes, but lawyers have their way of twisting things. The other, I'm told by a manufacturer here in Tampa Fl, is that it creates another set of paperwork, that they just don't want to deal with, so... killing two birds with one stone, ship to an FFL

As far as a walk up to a manufacturer.... can't say. I know that Kel-Tec requires a copy of the 4473 to do warranty work, to prove you're owner #1, I suppose. Dunno how they'd tell from the 4473... but they require it. I also suppose that since they have that, they have reasonable cause to assume that you're gtg on the replacement, which they happily send, with a letter explaining the change of serial number.

[Bawanna]

That's precisely what I PM'd Jocko a while back. The manufacture can do it but many and Kahr for sure will not due to the liability. They also must send in paperwork advising of the serial number change.

I don't know how anyone could provide the form 4473. The buyer never gets a copy of that. I'm only allowed to keep them for 20 days and they have to be destroyed. A dealer keeps them for years, I guess the buyer would have to track down the original dealer to get a copy of it.

[CJB]

They also must send in paperwork advising of the serial number change.

I don't know how anyone could provide the form 4473. The buyer never gets a copy of that. I'm only allowed to keep them for 20 days and they have to be destroyed. A dealer keeps them for years, I guess the buyer would have to track down the original dealer to get a copy of it.

Col., almost right.

The manufacturer does not send anything in. They do file reports, yearly, on what was produced. I'm not even sure if serial number ranges are part of that. They keep "bound books" just like the FFL, and must produce upon demand. I do not know the record keeping length for the manufacturer's license. Certainly its no shorter than the 7 years required by dealers license. In other words they must account for what arms they manufacture, and the disposition of them. Most go to distribution channels, some to PD and govt directly, a few go as trade samples and sales display items. When it goes out the door, it must be accounted for. The elimination of the accounting, and the surrounding liability is where the manufacturers differ.

Kel-Tek does in fact ask for the original 4473. You gotta go get a photocopy of it from the original FFL dealer that transferred the item to you. I know... bill of sale... but I guess they're easy to fake?

I don't know of any other manufacturers that require the 4473, so who knows. Ruger was good to go, new Blackhawk 357. Mine replacement came with a Super Blackhawk gripframe (steel) and ejector rod housing (steel) as a "bonus". They were super cool about it. So was HK.

I think for manufacturers its just a matter of "do the easy thing", send it to the FFL, who is required to do another background check, etc etc.... eliminates messes for the manufacturer.

[CJB]

Going over things....

The only case of "send in" that I know of, is where a Title II weapon needed its receiver replaced. In that case, it WAS a "registered" item, and DID have to have all the ATF papers updated.

[jocko]

Col., almost right.

The manufacturer does not send anything in. They do file reports, yearly, on what was produced. I'm not even sure if serial number ranges are part of that. They keep "bound books" just like the FFL, and must produce upon demand. I do not know the record keeping length for the manufacturer's license. Certainly its no shorter than the 7 years required by dealers license. In other words they must account for what arms they manufacture, and the disposition of them. Most go to distribution channels, some to PD and govt directly, a few go as trade samples and sales display items. When it goes out the door, it must be accounted for. The elimination of the accounting, and the surrounding liability is where the manufacturers differ.

Kel-Tek does in fact ask for the original 4473. You gotta go get a photocopy of it from the original FFL dealer that transferred the item to you. I know... bill of sale... but I guess they're easy to fake?

I don't know of any other manufacturers that require the 4473, so who knows. Ruger was good to go, new Blackhawk 357. Mine replacement came with a Super Blackhawk gripframe (steel) and ejector rod housing (steel) as a "bonus". They were super cool about it. So was HK.

I think for manufacturers its just a matter of "do the easy thing", send it to the FFL, who is required to do another background check, etc etc.... eliminates messes for the manufacturer.

wow that is bull sh!t on the kel teks. I have not ownd them for years now but I sent mine 3 back a total of 16 tims and was never ask nutting by tem. They never replaced a numbered frame but everything else on my 3 guns many tmes. They were totaly unreliable back then, but today I hear they are muchy better. If they insist on a form 4473k, tghen IMO they are just trying to keep people from sending back their guns for stupid reasons. Not sure a gun dealer is obligated to give you a copy of the form 44734 eiter. That is his information. I sold guns for over 40 years and never was ever asked about giving tghem a copy of form 4473. Didn't have a printer back then in my business either That sure sounds screwey to me CJB but kel tek can set their own rules. One thing might be is that it shows the age of the gun . Not sure what kts warranty time is either. I was told by an inside Kahr person that the serial number of a gun dies with that gun, neer to be used again. If they put a prefix before or after it, definitely it is a different serial number thaqn. That makes alot of sense CJB. Laws have changed since I retired from the gun business. I remember the horse sh! I had to put up with with the ATF on my black powder storage and my insurance compny.

I had to have a regulation metal fireproof, spark proof contaqiner thqt could hold no more than 50#. It had to be inside my building in a locked area. Now my insurance company when they came in to do a yeqarly audit, when they seen that black powder box in my locked room they threw a fit and said it must be outside the building i a storage container or they would not cover me.

So, it was musical chairs back then. When jATF was coming and the day I knew they were coming, I moved the black powder inside my building in the locked room and then the insurance audit was gonna happen Imoved it outsiude like they wanted. Worked for me until I retired. FOKK UM BOTH

[muggsy]

I had always wondered about that Jocko, what about all the Kahr owners that had their frames replaced? Did they stamp the same serial number on the frame? I know here in California if a new serial number is issued your dealer has to receive, log and re-dros your firearm to you.

I had the frame on my P380 replaced. That made it a new gun with a new serial number and because of that a NICS was required. I also received a letter from Kahr that described what had transpired that I am required to retain as long as I own the gun. More Brady B.S.

[CJB]

WTF Muggs?

I never got a letter from Kahr, and they replaced my first PM45's frame. That was two years ago, plus a few months...

Jocko, the KelTec thing is for WARRANTY repair, not for frame replace. Just to be clear. It's their policy, and I have no idea why a bill of sale wont work with them. It makes me want to go get a copy of my KSG 4473, and keep it for posterity (and future repairs... I'm not selling that beast... its too much fun to shoot).

[yqtszhj]

WTF Muggs?

I never got a letter from Kahr, and they replaced my first PM45's frame. That was two years ago, plus a few months...

.

I got a letter (more like a form) in the box with my new CW45 frame recently like muggs mentioned with the old defective frame serial number they kept and the new serial number of the replacement. I forgot about it until muggsy mentioned it.

[imarangemaster]

Holy Cow! Got the new recoil spring, slide stop spring, mag catch and mag catch spring from Kahr. The mag catch has the improved slight upward bevel on the shelf and the mag catch spring is stiffer than the one I took out. Those two improvements should cure the problem of the mags dropping. The new slide stop spring is certainly better. The stop stays down, but will pop into place with an empty mag. Before I had to choose either work and let the slide stop engage, or tighten it where an empty mag would trigger it.

The big difference is the recoil spring! It was a little degraded, taking a set, as the space in the coils was slightly less than the new one. I expected that. What I did not expect was that Bubba, the prior owner, lopped of 5 or 6 coils from the recoil spring! No wonder I was having FTFs. While I agree putting the new recoil spring in was a tough job (I had to use a brass rod the same diameter of the recoil spring guide from the front to keep the spring from kinking when I put it in), cutting coils is not the answer!

I'll take it to the range Tuesday (retired cops half price) and wring it out. I'll start with 50 to 100 rounds of ball to set things in.

[yqtszhj]

Sounds like you may have your issues resolved.

[CJB]

Amazing.... just totally f'n amazing!

[imarangemaster]

Amazing.... just totally f'n amazing!

I thought so. Who in the heck would cut that many coils off of a recoil spring? Either he shot "mousefart" target loads, or he wanted to make it easier to re-assemble the weapon.

[imarangemaster]

Well, I changed out the springs in the Kahr 6 round factory mags. One was almost as long s the replacement, but one was completely collapsed. It barely extended past the bottom of the magazine 1/2". At first I thought Bubba clipped coils on that spring too, but it has the same number of coils as the factory replacement. It appears to be the same color and design, so I conclude it is a collapsed factory sprig.

I know from my days/training as an armorer, that leaving a magazine loaded is not what degrades a spring. The constant cycling (compression and release of a spring tension) is what breaks it down. I did a test with S&W 59 magazines on the PD, leaving them compressed for two or three years. They were exactly the same length as when they were first put in the magazine. A friend did the same test with 30 round USGI M1 carbine magazines, and had the same result. In the USAF SP arms room, I used to leave the M16 mags for our GAU-5/A/A AR platforms loaded with 30. They never gave any problems. We would empty the mags on twice annual range days, then charge them with fresh rounds for duty issue.

It is unlikely that the last owner used the magazine so much it degraded the spring to that extent. I am guessing it was a defective spring, not properly tempered. I have run into that occasionally on new mags as an Armorer.