Strange P380 Problem--Dead Trigger

[Alphonso]

Howdy,

Even though I have been a member here for many years I had to re register and this may look like my first post. It is not.

Today I had a very strange failure with my P380. I have never heard of such a failure with any handgun.

On the third or fourth round of a full mag my trigger went dead. That is, it would move back and forth, but nothing happened. No engagement, no click, no light strike--nothing at all.

To my great surprise there was a new live round fully seated in the chamber and the slide was in full battery.

This happened four time with two different mags.

I've had this pistol for, maybe, ten years and have never had a failure.

Kahr tech support is closed right now.

Anybody ever heard of this and/or have any ideas?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[lee1000]

What did you find when you took it apart?

[Alphonso]

What did you find when you took it apart?

Everything looks normal. I only did a field strip. I can't imagine how:

1. A round fired and was ejected
2. A new round got chambered
3. The trigger did not reset

I'm no gunsmith, but that doesn't even seem possible to me.

[Wlfman13]

Clean your striker channel, and replace your recoil springs. I am on my third set of recoil springs, and am about to order a fourth as a backup because my third set has 800 rounds on it.

Try this. The next time that happens, pull the slide back a quarter inch to 3/8 inch. Don’t eject the live round. Kinda like you are checking to see if the gun has a round chambered. Make sure you push the slide all the way forward after “checking for a live round”. Then, aim, and pull the trigger. You should hear a bang.

If that bang happens after doing a “mini-rack” to reset the trigger and pushing the slide forward into battery, you need new recoil springs. This happened to me, and new recoil springs fixed the problem.

-Wlf

[Alphonso]

Clean your striker channel, and replace your recoil springs. I am on my third set of recoil springs, and am about to order a fourth as a backup because my third set has 800 rounds on it.

Try this. The next time that happens, pull the slide back a quarter inch to 3/8 inch. Don’t eject the live round. Kinda like you are checking to see if the gun has a round chambered. Make sure you push the slide all the way forward after “checking for a live round”. Then, aim, and pull the trigger. You should hear a bang.

If that bang happens after doing a “mini-rack” to reset the trigger and pushing the slide forward into battery, you need new recoil springs. This happened to me, and new recoil springs fixed the problem.

-Wlf

Thanks for that. I will order recoil springs tomorrow.

Can you explain how the gun could cycle (to include chambering a new round) and not reset the trigger? Like I mentioned, I'm not a gunsmith but I just can't imagine how that could happen.

I know the striker channel is clean because I completely dissembled and cleaned the pistol just 30 or so rounds ago. However, I have never changed the recoil springs. I couldn't even guess at the number of rounds I've shot in the last 8 or 10 years since I got the P380.

I've carried this little 380 (when I couldn't carry a "real" gun) for a long long time. I've grown fond of it and can't hardly stand the idea that it failed me this afternoon for the first time ever at Fawn's Butt Gun Range.

[gb6491]

Everything looks normal. I only did a field strip. I can't imagine how:

1. A round fired and was ejected
2. A new round got chambered
3. The trigger did not reset

I'm no gunsmith, but that doesn't even seem possible to me.

Though firing a round is dependent on the trigger releasing the striker, ejecting and chambering a new round generally happen with the trigger disconnected.

I suspect you have a problem with one (or more) of the following:
Trigger bar spring
Trigger bar
slide
cocking cam

Some of these are best checked by removing the side plate of the frame, but before doing that try checking the following:
Remove the slide. Look to see if the trigger bar spring is properly seated in the frame and that the end of it is under the trigger bar.
The spring in the following photos is correctly seated and positioned. The trigger bar in the photos is correctly positioned by the trigger bar spring. In this condition, pulling the trigger bar should move the cocking cam.


If the cocking cam moves, let's look at the disconnector.

Take a small tool (screwdriver, butterknife, etc.) and press the disconnector down until the top of it is below the level of the frame, then release it. It should immediately return to it's full height.
Now pull and hold the trigger. The disconnector should have moved foward from it's previous position. Now, still holding the trigger to the rear, push the disconnector below the edge of the frame. This should allow the cocking cam to reset (you see and hear this happen) and the disconnector should remain down when you pull your tool away. Now, release the trigger; the disconnector should pop back up in it's original position (see photo). There should be an audible click when this happens. Pulling the trigger should cause the cocking cam to move.

If everything is good to this point, it might be best to remove the slide plate. Let me what you find while doing the above and we will continue.

Regards,
Greg

[Alphonso]

Though firing a round is dependent on the trigger releasing the striker, ejecting and chambering a new round generally happen with the trigger disconnected.

I suspect you have a problem with one (or more) of the following:
Trigger bar spring
Trigger bar
slide
cocking cam

Some of these are best checked by removing the side plate of the frame, but before doing that try checking the following:
Remove the slide. Look to see if the trigger bar spring is properly seated in the frame and that the end of it is under the trigger bar.
The spring in the following photos is correctly seated and positioned. The trigger bar in the photos is correctly positioned by the trigger bar spring. In this condition, pulling the trigger bar should move the cocking cam.


If the cocking cam moves, let's look at the disconnector.

Take a small tool (screwdriver, butterknife, etc.) and press the disconnector down until the top of it is below the level of the frame, then release it. It should immediately return to it's full height.
Now pull and hold the trigger. The disconnector should have moved foward from it's previous position. Now, still holding the trigger to the rear, push the disconnector below the edge of the frame. This should allow the cocking cam to reset (you see and hear this happen) and the disconnector should remain down when you pull your tool away. Now, release the trigger; the disconnector should pop back up in it's original position (see photo). There should be an audible click when this happens. Pulling the trigger should cause the cocking cam to move.

If everything is good to this point, it might be best to remove the slide plate. Let me what you find while doing the above and we will continue.

Regards,
Greg

Thanks for the lengthy and excellent answer. I followed your steps one by one. I think everything went as it should:

1) The spring is properly seated
2) The cocking cam moves as it should
3) The disconnector pops back up when released
4) The cocking cam resets
5) The disconnector remains down while holding the trigger
6) The disconnector pops back up when releasing the trigger.

Again, thanks for the help. I'd appreciate any ideas about what to look at next. I have had the side plate off of a couple of other Kahrs....

[gb6491]

Thanks for the lengthy and excellent answer. I followed your steps one by one. I think everything went as it should:

1) The spring is properly seated
2) The cocking cam moves as it should
3) The disconnector pops back up when released
4) The cocking cam resets
5) The disconnector remains down while holding the trigger
6) The disconnector pops back up when releasing the trigger.

Again, thanks for the help. I'd appreciate any ideas about what to look at next. I have had the side plate off of a couple of other Kahrs....

One last thing to check before removing the side plate is to see if a magazine is causing any interference with the trigger bar or the trigger bar spring.

Next, I would look at where the slide and disconnecter interface. On the bottom edge of the slide there is a cutout section that rides directly above the disconnecter when the slide is in battery. This allows the disconnecter to rise to it's full height and engage the trigger bar with the cocking cam. Check this cutout area and the disconnecter for any damage/wear that might interfere with a correct interface/operation of the parts.

Here's a photo of a slide out of battery that shows the slide cutout. This pistol has a malfunction in that the disconnecter is wedged under the slide. The disconnecter should be riding along the underside of the slide at this point (which would disconnect the trigger bar).


Also check:
the side plate for any indication that the trigger bar might be hanging up on it.
The interface of the trigger bar and cocking cam looking for full engaement


Might as well give everything a good cleaning everything at this point.

If you have found nothing amiss, I'd suggest replacing the trigger bar spring.

Regards,
Greg

[Alphonso]

Thanks for the help. I haven't mentioned about a fairly recent change I made to the P380. I didn't think of it until you mentioned mag interference.

A short while ago I installed the Magguts 6 to 7 +1 kit.

I fired almost 30 rounds since then, with this "dead trigger" problem only showing up at the very end.

I read many posts here about the Magguts kit. None mention a problem like mine.

Wadda you think?

[dustnchips]

If I ever run into this problem I sure hope I can find this post again. What great, clear, and through instructions.

[Alphonso]

Clean your striker channel, and replace your recoil springs. I am on my third set of recoil springs, and am about to order a fourth as a backup because my third set has 800 rounds on it.

Try this. The next time that happens, pull the slide back a quarter inch to 3/8 inch. Don’t eject the live round. Kinda like you are checking to see if the gun has a round chambered. Make sure you push the slide all the way forward after “checking for a live round”. Then, aim, and pull the trigger. You should hear a bang.

If that bang happens after doing a “mini-rack” to reset the trigger and pushing the slide forward into battery, you need new recoil springs. This happened to me, and new recoil springs fixed the problem.

-Wlf

OK, I took the Magguts +1 kit out of the mags and test fired again. Same problem: fire and eject one shell, chamber a new round, "dead trigger".

Your post above was exactly right. After my "dead trigger" failure I pulled the slide back, heard a click when the trigger reset, and was able to fire the gun.

Thanks.

I have an RMA to return the gun to Kahr coming. I may opt to just replace the spring.

[Wlfman13]

Alphonso,

One additional detail I didn’t mention. Given your original post, I didn’t think it mattered. However, you and I have experienced similar issues this month. I recently switched the followers and springs in both of my P380 magazines to the Magguts +1 kit. I immediately started to have “weird” light strikes after firing the first round. This was happening after losing the mag with five rounds, and shooting one. Then, on the next shot (with one in the chamber, and three in the mag), I would experience the lightest of light strikes. No bang. At first, I threw the round downrange as I thought it was a defective round. After the third time (both mags did this), I did a “press check” (I think that term is correct). I racked the slide 3/8” and pushed it forward. The round would fire, as well as the remaining rounds. It only happened with four rounds remaining, regardless of which mag I used, and regardless of how many rounds I initially loaded I to the magazine.

At first, I blamed the problem on the fact that I sprayed Ballistol onto the breech face and striker assembly and spring when cleaning. That had been my first time to ever use Ballistol. After cleaning the striker channel with non-chlorinated brake cleaner, the issue remained. I then blamed the issue on the magguts followers. Then, I remembered that the first sign that I needed recoil springs the last time I had to change them was light strikes. THOSE light strikes were easier to feel and hear. For some reason, the magguts springs made the light strikes lighter this time.

That night, at home, with the gun loaded, I again pulled the slide back a quarter inch to see if the spring was strong enough to push the slide back into battery without the help of any forward momentum. No joy.

I changed the recoil springs, and the “mini rack test” resulted in the slide going easily and quickly back into battery without the help of momentum.

The next three trips to the range have been completely different. It’s like a brand new gun. I now realize what it feels like to be dealing with recoil springs that have gotten “sluggish”.

I’m typing this on a phone, so it feels very long and drawn out. I hope, though, that this post benefits someone. If my description does not provide help, or a solution, then I feel very confident that the excellent information provided by gb6491 will be helpful. I learned a lot just from reading his post, and now feel comfortable tackling the replacement of my trigger bar spring, should the need arise.

-Wlf

[Alphonso]

Alphonso,

One additional detail I didn’t mention. Given your original post, I didn’t think it mattered. However, you and I have experienced similar issues this month. I recently switched the followers and springs in both of my P380 magazines to the Magguts +1 kit. I immediately started to have “weird” light strikes after firing the first round. This was happening after losing the mag with five rounds, and shooting one. Then, on the next shot (with one in the chamber, and three in the mag), I would experience the lightest of light strikes. No bang. At first, I threw the round downrange as I thought it was a defective round. After the third time (both mags did this), I did a “press check” (I think that term is correct). I racked the slide 3/8” and pushed it forward. The round would fire, as well as the remaining rounds. It only happened with four rounds remaining, regardless of which mag I used, and regardless of how many rounds I initially loaded I to the magazine.

At first, I blamed the problem on the fact that I sprayed Ballistol onto the breech face and striker assembly and spring when cleaning. That had been my first time to ever use Ballistol. After cleaning the striker channel with non-chlorinated brake cleaner, the issue remained. I then blamed the issue on the magguts followers. Then, I remembered that the first sign that I needed recoil springs the last time I had to change them was light strikes. THOSE light strikes were easier to feel and hear. For some reason, the magguts springs made the light strikes lighter this time.

That night, at home, with the gun loaded, I again pulled the slide back a quarter inch to see if the spring was strong enough to push the slide back into battery without the help of any forward momentum. No joy.

I changed the recoil springs, and the “mini rack test” resulted in the slide going easily and quickly back into battery without the help of momentum.

The next three trips to the range have been completely different. It’s like a brand new gun. I now realize what it feels like to be dealing with recoil springs that have gotten “sluggish”.

I’m typing this on a phone, so it feels very long and drawn out. I hope, though, that this post benefits someone. If my description does not provide help, or a solution, then I feel very confident that the excellent information provided by gb6491 will be helpful. I learned a lot just from reading his post, and now feel comfortable tackling the replacement of my trigger bar spring, should the need arise.

-Wlf

First off, if you can type a post like that from your phone you are my hero. That would take me a week to type on the phone.

I have had no light strikes. I have had "no strikes" and completely disengaged trigger. Also, my recoil springs return the slide to battery in all cases. No matter how little or how much I pull the slide back the recoils springs put it into full battery.

My problem is clearly failure to reset the trigger. I too at one point thought the problem was Magguts. Nope. Original mags have the same problem.

I have recoil spring coming from Kahr (their customer service has been truly wonderful to me over the years). If the springs don't fix the problem, the whole gun is going home to Kahr for a professional look see.

In the mean time a guy offered me an unfired (except factory test) S&W 380 Bodyguard with the built in laser for $250. Couldn't say no. I'll use it to back up the P380 or sell it for a small profit here in a week or two.

Thanks again for the help.

[lee1000]

How would a worn out recoil spring cause light strikes? I'm just asking because I want to learn something new.

[Wlfman13]

Lee1000,

(Please understand that I’m not a gunsmith, and I may be corrected. If so, I will definitely edit this post.)

The recoil spring is critical to placing “pre-tension” on the striker. It is what holds the slide forward. For that reason, the slide is hard to hold back. When the slide returns to battery, the striker catches on the trigger cam. The trigger cam won’t move forward. Because of that, something has to give. That thing that gives is the striker spring. The striker spring is strong. The recoil spring forces the slide forward, which “pre-cocks” the striker.

When you pull the trigger, the striker is pulled back the rest of the way, and at the end of the trigger travel, the “2nd nodule” on the trigger cam pushes on the rectangular piece, which removes the “barrier” that keeps the striker from hitting the primer cartridge.

if the slide is not fully in battery, then the trigger cam can only pull the striker back a little bit. Also, if the slide is TOO far back, then the trigger cam will only pull the striker back a little bit, AND will let go of the striker before it pushes the rectangular “button”, which allows the striker to hit the primer cartridge. So, you get a really light strike that doesn’t even touch the primer cartridge.

Now, on to a real-life example:
1. Unload your gun
2. Unload your gun again.
3. Remove the slide stop pin.
4. Remove the recoil spring and guide rod.
5. Remove the barrel.
6. Install the slide on the frame. Yep.
7. Lightly... rack the slide slowly. Until it snaps back over the trigger cam.
8. If you’ve never done this, you may now feel like you are in a bind. You can’t remove the slide without pulling the trigger. However, the slide needs to be in he correct spot.
9. Go ahead and pull the trigger with the slide where it is. Feel the sponginess? Let go of the trigger.
10. Now, push the slide forward until the rear of the slide is even with the frame. You will have to “force it”, since you will be working against the striker spring. Normally, the recoil spring does this work for you.
11. When the rear of the slide is pushed forward enough to be even with the rear of the frame, pull the trigger. Do you feel that? It feels like a normal trigger because it is pushing the striker spring back. For some reason, the trigger has no “power” unless the recoil spring pushes the slide forward, after the trigger “resets”.
12. After you pull the trigger, things will feel normal, and you will be able to slide the slide forward, over the trigger cam, like you would normally do just prior to cleaning the gun.

In short, the recoil spring HAS to have enough “oomph” to keep the slide in battery, which also “precocks” the striker, and also places the correct pressure on the trigger system to give it the power to pull the striker the rest of the way back.

If your recoil spring can’t keep the slide forward all the way, it can’t pull the striker back all the way (among other bad side-effects).

I REALLY hope this makes sense. And, I really hope I explained it correctly.

Everyone, PPPlease correct me if I am wrong.

Again, I did this on my phone. I’ll correct spelling and other issues (if needed) after I post this reply.

-Wlf