Ammunition

[WarEagleSig]

Hey guys, newbie here on this forum and new to Kahrs... I've been a Sig guys for 15 years, and mostly shooting .40 for the last 10 yrs. I appreciate this thread as I'm going through this debate with myself right now. I just bought a well broken in PM9 that's in pristine condition and it currently has Hornady CD in 115gr in it. I do find that the Hornady has less recoil and mussle flash than the Gold dots but now i'm questioning my decision. I may go upstairs and put the GD in it! I'm glad I found this forum..

[hsart]

Over the past few years I have read a lot of reports and articles on proper loads for various calibers. I agree with Michael W. that many of the negative stuff is years old, and the ammo makers have improved the process to make the 147gr very reliable. Nothing beats testing particular loads in your gun to get used to each bullets characteristics as far as recoil and suitability is concerned.

[jlottmc]

If your range will allow different mediums to test the covered wet phone books work well I always thought. Having said that there do seem to be some gold standard round/weight/caliber combinations that have acquitted themselves well on the streets. For example 125gr Gold Dot's in .357 doing about 1250fps (357 Sig too) I would think that a 9mm close to that would be a good choice. In 45, 230gr Winchester Rangers seem to be the gold standard. Just what I've read, and what I've gathered from various places. The short barrel on the PM9 might be a problem getting that kind of velocity though.

[Bawanna]

As stated several times already, the ammo manufacturers have made great strides and continue to do so, seems they are always getting better.
I console myself with the fact that anything that will work in your particular gun is gonna ruin the bad guys day, be it 380 or 460.
For most of us we have to remember to keep our mission in perspective, stop the threat so we can run away or get help. Police officers are a different deal, they need decisive results for a variety of reasons.
We should also prefer the poleaxe round whenever possible, if you shoot you should plan on them dieing so it's not a decision to be taken lightly.
The bad guy ain't gonna notice a couple hundred feet of velocity difference because you got a short barrel and your not using +P++++ Cape Buffalo loads.

[jlottmc]

This is true too, and shot placement is more than critical as well. Personally, I don't like having to keep shooting something I've already hit, and hit, and again. I also don't like things that don't work. I know there have been great strides in the construction area, and that's why we test on a regular basis too. I'm always looking for stuff that works just a little better. That being said, I will play the game with what I brought, for I also think like the Israeli's do and think that better is often the enemy of good. I was throwing that out there kind of as observation and what the benchmarks are. Again before and now, just my opinions, and should be treated as such.

[BroncoAZ]

Here are some PM9 ammo tests with velocities.
GUNS Magazine July 2010
Wynn

That link goes to a page with no text for me :75:

[Swat_dude]

Michael W, great post!

I am still a big proponent of velocity and energy so I haven't seriously considered the new Hornady rounds (although TAP 168 grains are my "duty" round in my .308). I have heard other "experts" like myself and Michael W stating velocity is overated and questioning the validity of Hydrostatic shock. This is preposterous to me as I have witnessed the devastating effects of relatively small bullets traveling at high velocities. i.e., high powered rifle rounds. For example, I think the choice is pretty clear between a larger diameter 230 grain bullet traveling at 900 fps and a smaller diameter 168 grain bullet traveling at 2700 fps... no contest. Of course velocity isn't the only consideration but with all things being equal, I'd prefer to push that little 9mm as fast as is practicable. With the PM9, you are already starting at a disadvantage on velocity with the shorter barrel so I prefer a +P or a "short-barrel" tuned round. I graduated from the dismal power of the Ruger LCP and even the +P rounds in the PM9 don't slap like the standard rounds do in the LCP so I feel like I am already ahead by upgrading to the PM9 for my front pocket gun.

[wyntrout]

That link goes to a page with no text for me :75:

It goes to a digital magazine and you can access the article from the table of contents or by paging over. There was a list of brands of ammo fired through the PM9 with chrono's velocities and group sizes in the article. I just posted the link that someone else posted earlier.
Wynn
There's good info in the whole review:
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...GUNS/GUNS0710/
You can click on the lower right edge of the page or use the menu at the top. From the Table of Contents, you can go directly to the article.
Uh, maybe you don't have Adobe Flash Player, or a new enough version. The magazine is a downloadable .pdf file. I use version 10... it's free:

http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/

[BroncoAZ]

It goes to a digital magazine and you can access the article from the table of contents or by paging over. There was a list of brands of ammo fired through the PM9 with chrono's velocities and group sizes in the article. I just posted the link that someone else posted earlier.
Wynn
There's good info in the whole review:
GUNS Magazine July 2010
You can click on the lower right edge of the page or use the menu at the top. From the Table of Contents, you can go directly to the article.
Uh, maybe you don't have Adobe Flash Player, or a new enough version. The magazine is a downloadable .pdf file. I use version 10... it's free:

Adobe Flash Player

Thanks for the info. I don't know why, but when I first clicked on the link it gave me a page with only the Guns magazine logo in the middle. I clicked around and found no links or text. A few minutes later I tried again and it came up with the magazine.

[wyntrout]

It might be that there was a lag in the video due to the streaming speed. Going from page to page is slower on the Internet than if you have the file on your computer.
I subscribe to a bunch of digital magazines and don't have piles of them growing everywhere. If I want a page I can print it. My hard drive space takes the hit, but eventually I'll clean that up or offload that stuff.
Wynn

[Michael W.]

Michael W, great post!

I am still a big proponent of velocity and energy so I haven't seriously considered the new Hornady rounds (although TAP 168 grains are my "duty" round in my .308). I have heard other "experts" like myself and Michael W stating velocity is overated and questioning the validity of Hydrostatic shock. This is preposterous to me as I have witnessed the devastating effects of relatively small bullets traveling at high velocities. i.e., high powered rifle rounds. For example, I think the choice is pretty clear between a larger diameter 230 grain bullet traveling at 900 fps and a smaller diameter 168 grain bullet traveling at 2700 fps... no contest. Of course velocity isn't the only consideration but with all things being equal, I'd prefer to push that little 9mm as fast as is practicable. With the PM9, you are already starting at a disadvantage on velocity with the shorter barrel so I prefer a +P or a "short-barrel" tuned round. I graduated from the dismal power of the Ruger LCP and even the +P rounds in the PM9 don't slap like the standard rounds do in the LCP so I feel like I am already ahead by upgrading to the PM9 for my front pocket gun.

The Gold Dot Short Barrel 124gr P+ is an interesting round.
It's actually slower than the standard Gold Dot 124gr +P
(1150fps vs 1220fps). While it's classified as a +P round
it barely squeeks above subsonic velocity and in fact is the same
velocity as the non-+P 124gr Gold Dot.

Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables

So in this case you are not relying on velocity to ensure expansion but rather
the tweaked bullet design of the "Short Barrel" series that is engineered to
expand more aggressively at lower velocities.

Basically exactly what Ranger-T and Federal HST has done with their
147gr offerings.

On the subject of wound channels, this pic is interesting and telling...



This of course is talking permanent wound channel and not temporary or
"hydrostatic" but I find it interesting that empirically what separates the
calibers in their given optimal loadings is less than one would think.
Kind of reinforces the idea that shot placement is certainly still
the biggest factor in being able to shut down an attacker in the
least possible time.

Michael-

[joshh]

has anyone tried the winchester pdx 9mm in their pm9? its available in 124gr+p or 147grLuger. i carry my glock22 with the pdx 165g .40 and would consider pdx rounds for my pm9 when it comes in...

[Michael W.]

has anyone tried the winchester pdx 9mm in their pm9? its available in 124gr+p or 147grLuger. i carry my glock22 with the pdx 165g .40 and would consider pdx rounds for my pm9 when it comes in...

The Winchester PDX1 Series is identical to their Bonded Ranger-T series.
except that its packaged in 20 rd boxes for "retail" sale. Meaning they can
charge a lot more for it

The corresponding "Law Enforcement" packaging of 50rd per box is
is the Ranger-T 124gr +P Bonded (RA9BAB) and Ranger-T 147gr Bonded (RA9B).
This is a much better value if you can find it.

The non-bonded versions of the same loads in 50rd packaging are easier to
find.

Just for giggles there a guy on the GlockTalk forum TWS G26 that has
done some extensive "backyard ballistics" testing of a number of popular 9mm
rounds including the Bonded Ranger 9mm. I don't suggest that his tests
are necessarily indicative of real world performance (I don't think even the
FBI ballistic gel tests are a true representation, there's just too many
variables to account for in a real shooting) however, TWS G26 uses a very
consistent methodology from test to test so you can see the *RELATIVE*
performance on a given round as compared to another.

YouTube - tnoutdoors9's Channel

Plus....it's just fun watching people shooting stuff and watching it blow up

Michael-

[jlottmc]

That'll do. Enough rounds on target will make for a good day. Though I find myself wanting a cornfield to play in now.

[cgo99]

The Gold Dot Short Barrel 124gr P+ is an interesting round.
It's actually slower than the standard Gold Dot 124gr +P
(1150fps vs 1220fps). While it's classified as a +P round
it barely squeeks above subsonic velocity and in fact is the same
velocity as the non-+P 124gr Gold Dot.

Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables

So in this case you are not relying on velocity to ensure expansion but rather
the tweaked bullet design of the "Short Barrel" series that is engineered to
expand more aggressively at lower velocities.

Basically exactly what Ranger-T and Federal HST has done with their
147gr offerings.

Michael-

MIchael, have you tried this ammo on your PM9? I have been curious about it for while but it has proven difficult to find around here .
Besides the bullet performance it is also supposed to reduce flash and recoil.