Is Kahr working on a solution?

[modraker]

Almost everyone will agree that Kahr makes an excellent pistol. In my opinion, the most annoying problem that owners experience is the broken magazine follower. While many will say that it has never happened to them, some others will confirm my observation. After years of being plagued by this, why has Kahr not been able to eliminate the problem? Have they even acknowledged that this is a design flaw?

[b4uqzme]

...or is it simply the risk of building to such tight tolerances...that a (small) percentage will encounter problems?

maybe?

[garyb]

I agree that Kahr has tight tolerances, but they know that too. I understand that there are failures in every product and every gun manufacturer. It is hard to tell what the exact percentages of follower problems are being encountered at Kahr. But they MUST realize that this is a weak area for them and the solutions are "seemingly" simple via QC. I agree with Modraker in that Kahr does need to give more focus on the follower area. I have not encountered any problem with followers (so far), but the number of reported issues on this forum alone, let alone unreported off the forum, would represent that some "need" exists. Perhaps their solution is to let the cards fall where they may and simply repair those feed ramps and followers that get reported....and not worry about the reputation or inconvenience to customers. I don't know what is going on in their minds. I'm just one of the lucky owners who have no problems, but want this company to have a good reputation and stellar product. For what it's worth....

[DavidR]

Is Kahr working on a solution?

I can't believe that tolerances are so tight that they can't get this right.

[garyb]

I can't believe that tolerances are so tight that they can't get this right.

I tend to agree. Kahr does seem to have tight tolerances....most agree. Every gun manufacturer has tolerances that must be made to "function" in the end. If it gets QC'd and it is not working properly, it gets caught and fixed, regardless of tight or loose tolerances.

[340pd]

Sadly, I believe many gun manufacturers look at the magazine as an afterthought. In my estimation, nobody makes a gun with tolerances so tight that a magazine cannot be made to function without breaking followers. I have owned semi autos for well over 55 years and have never broken any follower of any magazine fed gun I own, including Kahrs. That said, If one is going to break, it probably will be my Kahr follower just based on probability.

I really would like to see Kahr bring some sharp minds into solving this problem. They get a lot of bad press over this silly ongoing problem.

[clayflingythingy]

I tend to agree. Kahr does seem to have tight tolerances....most agree. Every gun manufacturer has tolerances that must be made to "function" in the end. If it gets QC'd and it is not working properly, it gets caught and fixed, regardless of tight or loose tolerances.

Actually that is not correct if Kahr is employing the latest Quality Assurance techniques. (QC is an outdated term no longer employed.)

Manufacturing today depends upon statistical process controls, empowering the line workers, ISO certification with written procedures, etc.

Since 100% inspection is guaranteed to miss a large number of defects manufacturing strives to build quality into the process, not INSPECT quality in after the fact.

[C0untZer0]

They could keep the follower from breaking by redesigning the follower. I have 2 broken followers now that have a semi-circle broken out of the front of them and they feed ammo just fine - at least through 200 rounds.


I'm really debating whether to get a Dremel and grind the ramp back, send it back to Kahr or leave it along since it works.

[b4uqzme]

Actually that is not correct if Kahr is employing the latest Quality Assurance techniques. (QC is an outdated term no longer employed.)

Manufacturing today depends upon statistical process controls, empowering the line workers, ISO certification with written procedures, etc.

Since 100% inspection is guaranteed to miss a large number of defects manufacturing strives to build quality into the process, not INSPECT quality in after the fact.

I guess that's my whole point: that neither method is perfect so some malfunctions will make their way into the hands of consumers. We're the ones who make a big deal out of it.

Tighter tolerances simply lessen the margin of error which increases the probability for issues. They are certainly aware of that but IMO not willing to compromise that component of their quality --- which is indeed the strength of the Kahr brand.

But to answer the original question: I am sure Kahr is working on a solution that improves the issue without causing any others. While many modify their followers the real issue seems to be the feed ramp. Improving those barrels could be a complicated problem. They could make every feed ramp shorter but what if that leads to feeding issues? Which is worse? Replacing followers or barrels?

[garyb]

Actually that is not correct if Kahr is employing the latest Quality Assurance techniques. (QC is an outdated term no longer employed.)

Manufacturing today depends upon statistical process controls, empowering the line workers, ISO certification with written procedures, etc.

Since 100% inspection is guaranteed to miss a large number of defects manufacturing strives to build quality into the process, not INSPECT quality in after the fact.

QC...QA...dated, outdated. There is a problem that needs to be fixed whether they fix it in the process or after the process. Call it what you want. They have a feed ramp problem that is breaking followers on a certain % of their products. We are not talking Quantitative Physics here.

[O'Dell]

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Kahr does not manufacture their magazines. If this is correct, they obviously need to get some additional control over their supplier or change to another. I've had bad mags in pistols over 45+ years of shooting, mostly in 1911's, but have never experienced a broken follower. However enough Kahr customer do to necessitate a solution.

[mr surveyor]

I think it's a factor of miniaturization and physics combined. Whether Jocko agrees or not, the main issues with the KelTec pistols, as well as most other micro pistols, is due to the attempt to make the smallest package-hottest caliber firearm on the market. Combine the offset feedramp/lower bore axis of the Kahr line with the reduced overall size per caliber and you can have "issues". Kahr has done an excellent job so far.


JD

[chrish]

I'm also curious if this is a NEWER problem. I don't recall seeing this issue crop up here much until the last year or two. I'm on my 3rd 9mm Kahr and none of them, even after shooting the crap out of them, have ever broken a follower or even shown much sign of wear on the follower. My P9 and PM9 are years and years old. Both circa 2008. My TP9 is 2010 or 2011.

Wondering if they've changed plastics, changed process, do they make them or outsource them, etc. Just curious. This does seem to be becoming more of a reported issue. Is it just more owners of newer guns or what.

[muggsy]

I don't think that the follower is the problem. The followers work just fine when the barrel doesn't slam into them on recoil when the last round is fired. The length of the feed ramp seems to be causing the followers to fail. If the length of the follower is within specs then the specs need to be changed. If the barrel is out of spec the feed ramp needs to be reworked. In any regard, Karh Arms needs to get their act together. The final product has their name on it.

[Calaveras]

I purchased a PM40 in April and didn't have much opportunity to break it in. A week ago Friday I finally had time and a place to complete the the break-in process. At 180 rounds, the follower in 5-round magazine broke. I'd been using both mags, so I'm sure less than 90 rounds through the 5-round mag. I shot another 60 rounds, +/-, through the 6-round mag with no problems.

I received a new follower from Kahr today and will try to get some rounds through it in the next couple of days. Kahr wants me to return the pistol to them if it breaks another follower.

My PM40 was manufactured in June, 2012.