Kahr T-9 Review and endurance test

[DMR]

Some of you may have quessed that i am interested in the Kahr pistol line. I had a PM-9 and currently still have a P-9, a T-9 and a TP-45. I bought my first Kahr in 1999 while stationed at West point and it has served well as a CCW pistol. To be clear I am not a high volume pistol shooter and have only done a few pistol courses, mostly with an old Kimber .45.

A few years ago on a whim I picked up a Kahr T-9 to use as a training 9mm. I know, but I live in NY and opted for a single stack vs. a nutered double stack. It's a compromise, but I fully understood the choices. Other things have alway taken higher priorities so I just never seemed to get back around to the T-9 so it sat in the safe for most of two years. I did do a few basic mods to address issues I had with it out of the box.

I purchased it old stock off of Gunbroker for $525 as I recall. This took months of watching since the T-9 is fairly uncommon and by best estimates fewer then 1000 have been made. The pistol arrived and I found a few points on the frame that bothered me so I put it in live for a trip to Cylinder & slide to be dehorned and to have the mag well opened slightly. I also had them releive around the mag release as I found the grip just slightly interfered with depressing the mag release w/o changing my grip.

I had planned on installing a set of Hienie Straight 8 sights like my P-9, but at the time Hienie was not producing them so I ended up with Novak three dot sights.

Holster selection I also found to be thin, but availible. I ordered a Blade-Tech holster for the training rig and a Mitch Rosen ARG for carry.


I have used it a few times since then(about 500 rounds), but stayed with my P-9 for the most part. I had found early on that I had trouble with the slide locking in battery while shooting. Grip is a common source of this problem with the small grip on the Kahr line, so I did a dozen things and could not solve the issue.

That is until I started looking closer at the slide stop. What I found was the slide stop was loose and basicly floating in the pistol. Under recoil this would cause the slide stop to jump up and catch the slide locking it to the rear. I found that the screw which retains the slide stop spring was loose, so the spring was appling no pressure on the slide stop. I talked to Kahr which agreed with my trouble shooting and they promptly sent out a new spring and screw.

Not to be beat I locktited the orginal screw and left the orginal spring in place, then buried it in the back of the safe again. That is until I saw the 2,000 round challange. I ordered up the ammo, cleaned the pistol well and applied a heavy load of CLP to the insides. I was not sure of this since I had not been back out to the range since working out an issue with the pistol.


For day one of the testing I brought 850 rounds of ammo. It was a mixed batch of Swiss surplus, Blazer and Speer Lawman ball ammo. I used the BladeTech holster, 3 mag pouches and 4 factory 8 round mags for testing. All shooting was done from 25 yards to 3 yards and done from the holster with various low speed drills. For test purposes most mag changes were speed drills allowing the mags to fall to the ground, but I also did a fair number of changes with retention. Each set of drills would run though all four mags before a pause to reload them.

I kept up the pace high enough that the T-9 slide was hot to the touch and completed firing the first 850 rounds in about 2 1/2 hours. This was largly because only one other person was on the range, and started helping me load mags.

Over the course of that time I confirmed why I had picked the T-9 to be a training gun over the P-9. The increased weight and larger grip made for a better day shooting then if I had used the P-9. More important I found that the pistol I had doubts about actualy worked and that the modifications I had made were worth it. That said it does have some quirks worth discussion.

1. Trigger return. If you are used to a short reseting trigger on you pistols you might need to adjust. The Kahrs are designed to have a long revolver like reset. As a dedicated Kahr shooter it is not an issue for me, but others may need to take that into consideration.

2. Grips. Releaving the grip near the mag catch realy increased the ablity for me to get a positive mag release. I did however, find that I need to figure out a good way to recontor the grips. By around 700 rounds I had a nice blister on the base of my dominate hands thumb from a high spot on the grip. I would like the rubber grips such as are availible for the K-9, but they are not an option for the T line. I'll take the mod on myself.

3. Sights. Novaks are nice, but I will return to Heinies now that they are availible again.

Reliablity. For most of the users on this board this is the bottom line. So far I have good news. I have one mag related malfunction, likely shooter induced. During a speed reload at around 650 rounds mag 3 released the top round before the slide released and stopped the pistol. I had to rip out the mag to clear the malfuntion, but had the pistol running again in no time. I believe this was due to the top round not being properly seated in the mag. It was also a mag loaded by my new freind on the range.

Other comments about my choice of the T-9. I have often heard the praise of pistols in that "sweet spot" like the Commander, and H&K P-7. I felt that the T-9 provided that same balance, so it seemed like the perfect NYS carry pistol. It conceals easily and you never have to go through any questions as to the vintage of your mags should you need to use it.

I'll continue the shooting this weekend and hope to finish up the 2,000 Challange and post the after pictures and results. The T-9 is not for everyone, but so far is a pistol that seems to deserve a look.

Before

[DMR]

Got out to the range today with my daughter for more shooting.

Round count started at 850 and went to 1250.

At the end of the session it looked like this:



I started out with a 15 yard 100 round slow fire group, I am not that high speed of a shooter as you can see. At least one one reason for the large group is I was not holding the same aim point.:


followed by a 15 yard 8 round slow fire group at 950-958.


Then I had a stovepipe on the last round in the mag. Cleared when I dropped the mag(poor Picture)


The rest of the day had no issues. The daughter was tired at this point so the remaining rounds were fired in rapid fire drills.

Sitting at 1250 it's nice and dirty






Total time on the range with it today 1 hour.

[ripley16]

Thanks. Waiting for the next report.

[jocko]

very nice report. that stove pipe will give your alittle training in TAP, RACK AND BANG THINGS. very good drill to learn,just in case. I sure would love to put my hands around a T9, I would droll for awhile before shooting it. It ahs to be the ncest kahr they make and whqat ahome defense gun and super range gun it would make IMO.

Nice report,now go clean the damn gun and continue on!!!!

u know that stove piple could be a combination of things to. Light loaded rounds, TIRED shooter, and then dirty ass gun. as your photos attested, that kahr looks very clean indeed..

[RogerP9fan]

Thanks for this awesome thread especially with the great pics!
Now I want a T9 with wood checkered grips!
I better get a grip or I'll be broke soon!

[DMR]

Tonight provided another hour of range time. with two people loading the same 4 8 round mags I was able to fire 500 rounds bring the total to 1750 rounds.

Again I fired various drills at 7 to 15 yards reloading from both retention and speed loading dropping the mags to the dirt. All ammo fired was Speer ball. Overall I rate the training value of tonights drills as crap. I simply rushed to much and will have to get back to the basics before I attend the next MDTS class I can get into.

Tonight brought three malfunctions. One weapon induced andtwo shooter induced. At about 1450 I had a failure to extract on the last round. The case was sitting half in the chamber and resting on the top of the follower. If it had not been the last mag in the string I may have missed it during the reload or had a double feed with the next mag. Examining the spent case and the extractor showed no obvious reason for the failure, but the pistol was so hot from the rapid fire that the trigger was hot. Perhaps the case stuck in a slightly over heated chamber.

The next two malfuntions were both failure to feeds. In each case they were the first rounds on a reload. I attibute both to operator error. In each case the mags were not fully inserted into the pistol and when the base of the magizine was slapped the slide slamed home on the round.

Other notes:

1. Tonight I started out shooting with gloves on on. The were thin $10 work gloves like the ones I used in OEF. They provided a very positive grip, but I found it all but impossible to depress the mag release. After the first 100 rounds I put them back in the bag and shot the rest bare handed. Tonight I had no issues with blistering at the base of my thumb.

2. Many say that the Kahr line will work best per the Kahr instructions to only use the slide release. Throughout this testing I have used both the slide release and sling shot methods to load with. The two failures to feed were both done using the slide release.

3. The Kahr line is known for being very tight and for being a carry alot and shot a little weapons. To my knowledge I have never seen a high round test published/posted before, which is one of the reasons I decided to do this. The slide is starting to be slow to return to battery, but is still chugging along. Overall, I don't thing this review is going to put anyone into the Kahr Camp, but I do find it a informative test for me. I have pushed the Kahr past the window that it is best known for and tried to compare it to traditional duty pistol reliablity.

Once I am done with this I will give it a good cleaning, and likely keep on shooting it, to include my next class. Right now the only change I want to make is to customize the grips. They need to be thinner (or an extended mag release) and have a slightly differant profile. Anyone good with machining G10 or Micarta?

[oldtex]

DMR, good info and thanks for doing this test. I noticed that you said you are up to about 1750 rds through the gun. For what it's worth, last month I called Kahr CS seeking info on how often to replace recoil springs in my K9 and TP9. A fellow there with a British accent (can't recall his name) told me that all Kahrs regardless of size and caliber need new recoil springs about every 1000-1500 rds. I had previously understood that my PM9 needed new recoil springs at about 1000 rd intervals, but I was surprised that this short interval applied to the Kahrs with longer slides as well. I asked him to repeat it to make sure that I understood correctly that he meant all Kahrs. He then reiterated it.

Based on that info, your malfunctions may have been caused at least partially by a recoil spring that needs replacement.

[jocko]

DMR. your the first that I have ever read of a kahr to be a carry alot and shoot seldom gun. that is just not true. You can shoot a kahr until the cows come home. I have over 30,000 rounds through my PM9 and one cracked follower. Well over 5000 through my K9 and no one issues. I have yet to read anywhere of a kahr being "shot" out..

If one buys a gun under the pretense it can't take the rounds down range, IMO he hasnot much of a gun. That saying first originated on the Kel Tec forum and there certainly is a difference between a kel tec and a kahr, IMO..

You have certainly proven I would think that the shoot seldom and carry alot doesn't hold true with your kahr as it has done spectacular...considering what tests you are putting it thorugh

[DMR]

Jocko,

Don't mistake my comment. I don't see the Kahr line as such, but Kahr's are seldom seen as the pistol you are going to take to a high round count training course. They simply aren't placed in that group by the type of users that often run 4-6 of those courses a year and shoot thousands of rounds a year.

That group will usualy shoot a Glock, S&W M&P, SIG or a high end custom 1911. Hence my comment on "traditional duty pistol reliablity". I find comparing the T-9, which is built for a differant market, against that group informative. You are the only individual I have seen (on line mind you)that has put that kind of ammo through a Kahr. This has been over the course of the several years that you have been posting on your pistol. If your records are detailed enough it would be great to see your long term results summed up similure to what Todd is doing for the various pistols he has reviewed, currently a HK45 at 26,334 rounds:
pistol-training.com

The pistol is obviously performing perfectly. Going over 26,000 rounds without a single stoppage, especially given that the gun has only been cleaned three times, is nothing short of amazing. I’ve had some pretty reliable guns in the past, but this HK45 has set the bar so high it’s ridiculous. And who knows how much farther it will go?....We’re right on track to hit 50,000 by the end of the year!

Maybe Kahr could give him a call and a T-9 or T-40 to break?

oldtex,

Every 1,000 rounds? Seems like a very frequent scheaduale. I'm not sure how often jocko has replaced his PM springs, but I'm well past that on my P-9. Replacing them ever 1,000 rounds as a factory recommended scheaduale also hurts the Kahr as a shoot often pistol vs. say a Glock.

[jocko]

I really don'thave a set round number to replace. WhenI get a wild hair, I just replace recoil springs and also mag springs. I really don't try to push tne envelope with recoil springs, They are cheap to replace and IMO when in doubt REPLACE. Mag springs are not that important. I am foundof the wolffs 20.5# recoil spring set up and I also like their 5% extra strength mag springs to. I am not out to test any records, I just really love to shoot my PM9. It is my 24/7 defense gun and although I don't shoot it near as good as my G19, it is my life saving gun no doubt to. If a part breaks tomorrow, I will just replace it, as I do think that is what a parts list if for to. So far other than a cracked mag follower than actually never faltered either is all that has ever went south on my PM9 and nadda, zero, nothing on the K9.

Some gun techs have said that 5000 rounds out of a gun is a lifetime for 90% of most shooters and I do think that is probably right. Ammo is not cheap, areas to shoot are getting less and less and I would guess if your going to get real serious in shooting etc, that one would probalby go to a staggered magazine type gun also, over a single stack such as kahrs.

[oldtex]

.....
oldtex,

Every 1,000 rounds? Seems like a very frequent scheaduale. I'm not sure how often jocko has replaced his PM springs, but I'm well past that on my P-9. Replacing them ever 1,000 rounds as a factory recommended scheaduale also hurts the Kahr as a shoot often pistol vs. say a Glock.

I agree that a 1k-1500 rd interval for changing recoil springs sounds very frequent. But firstly, this is what the CS guy at Kahr told me, and what a rep of the manufacturer says about required maintenance should, in my mind, carry a lot of weight.

Secondly, springs are cheap. 1500 rds of Federal 115gr FMJ from Walmart will set me back about $300 bucks plus tax, and a spring to burn that ammo costs less than $10 plus shipping. I keep spare recoil springs on hand for all my autos (except the wife's P32...need to get one for that).

Thirdly, they're easy to change.

Keeping a relatively fresh recoil spring in a gun is insurance against malfunctions, and should help a gun last longer because it limits the force that a recoiling slide exerts on the frame.

Not everyone who replaces springs less frequently is going to have a problem. For me it's an issue of managing risk. I prefer to reduce the risk of malfunctions and premature wear and parts breakage by changing springs when the manufacturer recommends it.

I don't really understand your statement about the interval hurting a Kahr relative to a Glock as a shoot often pistol. Could you expand on that idea?

I'm not a Glock armorer, but my understanding is that somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500-3000 is the manufacturer's recommended recoil spring changing interval for Glocks. I change my Glock recoil springs at 3K. SIG I think is recommending a similar interval.

By the way, IIRC Rohrbaugh recommends on their website changing the recoil spring in its R9 every 200 rds.

[Bawanna]

"Once I am done with this I will give it a good cleaning, and likely keep on shooting it, to include my next class. Right now the only change I want to make is to customize the grips. They need to be thinner (or an extended mag release) and have a slightly differant profile. Anyone good with machining G10 or Micarta? "

I'm not exactly sure what G10 is, I suspect that synthetic stuff the FBI put on HI Powers years ago?
I can slim those grips you got on there now down some, recut the checkering and refinish. Or build from scratch if I can find a T9 to fit too. Those look like Pau Fero or something. Never messed with Micarta either but that's probably doable too.

[jocko]

A hard core top notch Glock shooter who has done some serious work on my G19 told me to change at least 3000 rounds. Like has has said recoil springs are cheap in price and the #1 thing that can cuase issues with any gun, Change as often as u feel comfortable doing. If you shoot alot, change often...

I have read the Rohrbaugh recommendation to and I have read that if one stretches that round count, be assured issues will arise. At least they tell you up front. This R9 is a dandy gun but also not a gun that you can shoot until the cows come home, but those that have um and take care of them love um to, and respect them for what they are truly made for "DEFENSE"... they aren't cheap in price but neither is "life"..

[at_liberty]

The other night at the range my T40 started banging up the mouths of ejected cases. The cases were scrap as far as reloading goes, so I intend to try a new recoil spring. The manual says "D" shaped cases coming out of Kahrs is "normal", but the fact is that the gun never did this before. Kahr CS pointed me to that statement in the manual, so no fix was suggested to me. Continuing would be unacceptable, since I reload and rely on salvaging my brass. Without a fix, the gun will be set aside, possibly sold.

The gun is at about 1000-1500 rounds. I wasn't counting but know I haven't bought, made, or shot great quantities of 40 SW, since it is not a match gun for me. I have two other Kahr 40, neither of which marks the brass to this extent.

[hedgehog]

Is there any reason to get a stainless guide rod since we are sort of on the subject here?