.380 HP vs. Ball for Defense.

[Popeye]

JHP in all my pistols for SD. Ranging from .380,9mm, to 45 acp. If your going to make a hole might as well make the biggest ugliest one can with whatever tool your using.

[Barth]

FBI Protocol Test Results

I have a good friend who admittedly is much smarter than I when it comes to ballistics. He is a former S.F. Military Iraq vet. We agree that we hate carrying .380's but they do have a purpose every once in a while. He told me that he carries +p round nose ammo instead of hollowpoints in his. He said he does It for the penetration and the internal shock. He cited that the FBI test put .380 at 12" of penetration (I don't know how accurate that is). I see the logic in that theory, but I am curious what the knowledgeable folks here have to say about it. There is a similar thread just started but I did not want to hijack it.

9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.380 Win Silvertip | 85@ 954, 11.6 mv, 172 E|BR 7.9", 0.58", 2.09cu|CL 9.1", 0.47", 1.58cu|avg 1.83, 1.11 re, 1.65
.380 CCI/Speer GD | 88@ 914, 11.5 mv, 163 E|BR 11.6", 0.46", 1.92cu|CL 17.2", 0.35", 1.66cu|avg 1.79, 1.09 re, 1.64
.380 CCI/Speer GD | 90@ 934, 12.0 mv, 174 E|BR 9.3", 0.59", 2.54cu|CL 11.3", 0.49", 2.14cu|avg 2.34, 1.19 re, 1.96
.380 Fed HydraShok | 90@ 971, 12.5 mv, 188 E|BR 6.7", 0.66", 2.29cu|CL 12.0", 0.49", 2.26cu|avg 2.28, 1.29 re, 1.77

[johnh]

Interesting info Barth. The .380 does better than I would have expected in comparison to the 9mm Ranger. I need to get some better .380 JHPs. I the stuff I am carrying is pretty dated.

[Barth]

Interesting info Barth. The .380 does better than I would have expected in comparison to the 9mm Ranger. I need to get some better .380 JHPs. I the stuff I am carrying is pretty dated.

Yup, Yup.
For years I completely discounted .380.
And had serious doubts about 9mm.

The rules have changed - LOL

[wyntrout]

At Ballistics by the Inch they have real world results for some popular ammo through most guns... and lots of info:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto2.html#RW

P380 and many others are there.

Wynn

[Bill K]

I've carried a .380 for a few years here in CT and in PA when visiting family or hunting. Summer I carry HPs, generally Corbon DPX or Gold Dots. Prior to this winter I had been carrying hard cast flat nose due to heavier clothing but now carry Hornady Critical Defense. Spring I'll switch back to HP.

[HDoc]

That calls for a few follow-up shots. You don't have to be quick about it, those books move reeeeal slow.

You should know that phone books have a reputation as difficult kills.
They require a Mozambique drill of two in the white pages and one in the yellow.

[muggsy]

If I were carrying a .380 and I am, I'd run ball in the winter months for penetration and hollow points in the summer for expansion. I'd also make sure that both rounds fed reliably in my gun. A gun that won't go bang every time you pull the trigger won't protect you as well as one that will.

[ltxi]

That's what I thought. I figured that HP was HP and ball was all non-HP. Is it more of a bullet shape thing? What's a wadcutter?

Flat faced lead bullets loaded flush with the case face. Normally used lightly loaded for target work. Cuts clean holes in paper.

Back in the day, before god invented hollow points, hollow base wadcutters were often loaded base out for expansion for use in snubs for defense.

Almost revolver exclusive for the obvious reason. There was one well known auto chambered for these....the S&W Model 52, a variant of the M59.

Not to be confused with the semi-wadcutter variation which were usually hard cast hunting and defense rounds.

[jocko]

good point

If I were carrying a .380 and I am, I'd run ball in the winter months for penetration and hollow points in the summer for expansion. I'd also make sure that both rounds fed reliably in my gun. A gun that won't go bang every time you pull the trigger won't protect you as well as one that will.

on ther go bang thing every time. I just carry the powerball in my P380 24/7, feeds like a fmj round, kinda hot round and so far goes bang every time. Course I never carryt the gun anymore either

If it was not so much of a hassle for me I would post it here on the forum and sell it. as it is xs bog dot set up with grip stipplying and mag well cut out, been back to kahr once and sinc ehas been OK but I just never carry it.

[yatyas42]

@Barth, thanks for that data table with the explanation. I guess one thing I don't understand is why the penetration was so much deeper in clothed gelatin over bare. Common sense would tell me that the cloth would slow things down. I noticed that CR had smaller expansion, which could lead to more penetration, but why the smaller expansion with cloth? Again to me denies common sense. BTW I love this forum.

[wyntrout]

Flat faced lead bullets loaded flush with the case face. Normally used lightly loaded for target work. Cuts clean holes in paper.

Back in the day, before god invented hollow points, hollow base wadcutters were often loaded base out for expansion for use in snubs for defense.

I haven't had a .38 or .357 for a long time, but I finally got to fire off the last six of those reversed wadcutters I had made for defensive use back in the 70's. They fired OK, but all keyholed at 7 yards. That was on the range trip with my buddy when he had those old cartridges rupture.

Wynn

[Big_John_1961]

Those are great shots, Wyn!

[Bill K]

@Barth, thanks for that data table with the explanation. I guess one thing I don't understand is why the penetration was so much deeper in clothed gelatin over bare. Common sense would tell me that the cloth would slow things down. I noticed that CR had smaller expansion, which could lead to more penetration, but why the smaller expansion with cloth? Again to me denies common sense. BTW I love this forum.

If you're talking about a HP bullet then likely the cloth clogged the point and as a result the bullet entered the gelatin as if it were ball ammo. Without the cloth the bullet expanded and as a result got less penetration.

[muggsy]

on ther go bang thing every time. I just carry the powerball in my P380 24/7, feeds like a fmj round, kinda hot round and so far goes bang every time. Course I never carryt the gun anymore either

If it was not so much of a hassle for me I would post it here on the forum and sell it. as it is xs bog dot set up with grip stipplying and mag well cut out, been back to kahr once and sinc ehas been OK but I just never carry it.

I carry a P3AT as a back up for my CM9. The .380 is usually in my jacket or pants pocket depending on the time of year. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger using Golden Saber or Ball Ammo. Some day I'll replace it with a P380, but not today. I keep hoping that Kahr will come out with a C380. I like no frill EDC pistols.