Stopping Power - What do LEO's Use?

[Barth]

I carry Gold Dot 9 mm 124 grain jhp +P short barrel in my Beretta Nano. Very expensive and I have only shot 30 rounds but all the reports I have read Speer makes hands down the best bonded bullet that will consistently retain most of its weight upon impact and more law enforcement use Speer than any other brand which is enough for me to carry Speer Gold Dot.

Price is a non issue for a carry round. My round is more than $1 each and if it was $5 and the best I would still purchase.

Russ

Speer GDHP +P 124 gr and Winchester Ranger T-Series +P+ 127 gr are my favorites.
But Ranger Ts are not bonded.
I just ordered some Federal 9mm HST 124 gr, but can't find anything but standard pressure.
So I actually agree that GDHPs may well be the best all around SD ammo I can get my hands on.
Certainly one of the best, any way you want to cut the cake.

The Speer 9mm Short Barrel is designed for 3.5" barrels.
I think my G27 is 3.46"?.
So I upgraded my G27 with a G23 Storm Lake 40-9mm conversion barrel.
Now I've got a full 4.02" barrel.
And use LE Duty GDHP 124 gr +P ammo in the 50 round box.
They run 1,220 fps and 410 E from a 4" barrel.
Strangely, that's just about a perfect match for my 2" 357 mag snub nose.
With very little recoil and 11 rounds.

I'm loving this new world of high tech ammo.

[mser]

Hey, MSER, thanks for the post. I'm curious are those the Short Barrel Gold Dots or the standard +P GDs that you carry in the PM9?

I carry the standard +P GDHP in my PM9.

[U.S. Patriot]

The problem with FMJ ammo is over penetration. Instead of mushrooming and dumping all of its energy inside the body, it normally makes a through and through wound. The one downside to JHP ammo is there is a chance it may become cloged with clothing and act as FMJ does. One reason Hornady came up with the Critical Defense line of ammo. I reccomend people who carry a pistol chambered in .380 to use FMJ ammo. Reason being is because it is a light and fairly slow moving round. So, with JHP ammo, you may not get proper mushrooming. Especially out of a shorter barrel.

In my fullsize guns I carry 147 grain Winchester Ranger SXT. In my PM9 I carry 115 grain Hornady Critical Defense. I like carying lighter ammo in pocket pistols. The extra velocity makes up for the it being a lighter load.

[joshh]

In my fullsize guns I carry 147 grain Winchester Ranger SXT. In my PM9 I carry 115 grain Hornady Critical Defense. I like carying lighter ammo in pocket pistols. The extra velocity makes up for the it being a lighter load.

1st off im not lookin to argue & think you should use whatever works best for you, but according to winchester & other "experts" you got it bass ackwards. they say use the 147gr in shorter barrels because the lighter loads are out of the barrel before the powder finishes burning and the pressure gets wasted. i initially carried the +p in my pm9 but switched to the 147gr after hearing this and trying some homemade tests that proved enough to me that the 147gr performed the way i wanted.

[U.S. Patriot]

1st off im not lookin to argue & think you should use whatever works best for you, but according to winchester & other "experts" you got it bass ackwards. they say use the 147gr in shorter barrels because the lighter loads are out of the barrel before the powder finishes burning and the pressure gets wasted. i initially carried the +p in my pm9 but switched to the 147gr after hearing this and trying some homemade tests that proved enough to me that the 147gr performed the way i wanted.

Show me where these "experts", said so. You realize it depends on the powder they use. Some powders burn slower than others. So what did you do for your homemade tests? I'll be doing some testing with my friends chronograph this spring. I'll take that over any "expert" wisdom on the interwebz.

[joshh]

Show me where these "experts", said so. You realize it depends on the powder they use. Some powders burn slower than others. So what did you do for your homemade tests? I'll be doing some testing with my friends chronograph this spring. I'll take that over any "expert" wisdom on the interwebz.

chrono measures speed, not effectiveness of rounds. use what u like bro. my homemade "tests" were us firing the pm9 with different rounds at pumpkins and water jugs at close range (15') with a layer of denim. heres the quote from win. rep, and my friends who sell vests and police equipment havent given me anything in writing but were cool enough to let me (and my pm9) participate in some vest tests all agreed that the 147gr was best suited for short barrel pistols. but who knows, next yr someone might (and probably will) have something better. use what works for you, this works for me.

"When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.
We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.
Sincerely,
Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition
I hope this helps"


(stole that pic of the pdx from google, nice jjob to whoever took it!)

[U.S. Patriot]

chrono measures speed, not effectiveness of rounds. use what u like bro. my homemade "tests" were us firing the pm9 with different rounds at pumpkins and water jugs at close range (15') with a layer of denim. heres the quote from win. rep, and my friends who sell vests and police equipment havent given me anything in writing but were cool enough to let me (and my pm9) participate in some vest tests all agreed that the 147gr was best suited for short barrel pistols. but who knows, next yr someone might (and probably will) have something better. use what works for you, this works for me.

"When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.
We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.
Sincerely,
Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition
I hope this helps"


(stole that pic of the pdx from google, nice jjob to whoever took it!)

How can you say that velocity does not correlate to performance of a round? You do realize that rounds have to travel at a certain velocity to properly expand, do you not? Say for example, Hornady claims x FPS from the muzzle for their 115 grain Critical Defense, which is what I carry in my PM9. If you get a similar velocity using a chronograph, then they are performing as stated out of a short barrel. I do not know what "vests" you tested. If a vest is rated to stop a 9mm rounds. How in the hell does that prove anything? As for what was stated by Winchester. It goes back to what powder you use. Anyone that reloads will tell you that. That's why I use the powder I do for my reloads, because it's a fast burning powder. As for you homemade tests. Pumpkins and water jugs do not mimic the human body. The closest you are going to get is ballistic gelatin or a pig corpse. I think you are basing to much of you information off of Interwebz babble.

[joshh]

How can you say that velocity does not correlate to performance of a round? You do realize that rounds have to travel at a certain velocity to properly expand, do you not? Say for example, Hornady claims x FPS from the muzzle for their 115 grain Critical Defense, which is what I carry in my PM9. If you get a similar velocity using a chronograph, then they are performing as stated out of a short barrel. I do not know what "vests" you tested. If a vest is rated to stop a 9mm rounds. How in the hell does that prove anything? As for what was stated by Winchester. It goes back to what powder you use. Anyone that reloads will tell you that. That's why I use the powder I do for my reloads, because it's a fast burning powder. As for you homemade tests. Pumpkins and water jugs do not mimic the human body. The closest you are going to get is ballistic gelatin or a pig corpse. I think you are basing to much of you information off of Interwebz babble.

obviously my tests werent scientific, and i never claimed them to be. i understand that velocity has an effect on the round (never said it didnt), as does the weight of the projectile. id rather be hit by a ping pong ball goin 100mph than a baseball going 35mph. from how it was explained to me, its all about energy transfer and the heavier round was doing better from short barrel pistols. i dont claim to be an expert and have simply passed along the info that i have been given as well as what my results have been. the "interwebz babble" i passed along came from the Senior Technical Specialist @
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition. so i'll take his advice along with what ive experienced 1st hand, but nobody says you have to...

[TheTman]

I like to go by FPS and FPE when choosing ammo I've not used before. Seems like when you compare 147 to 124 or 115 gr bullets, the lighter bullets are faster and deliver more energy than the 147 grain do. The 147 grain apparently does better shooting thru obstacles, like car windshields and sheetrock and such due to its heavier mass, which is why some agencies use them, but in real life, I don't expect to be shooting anyone in a car, unless they are trying to run me over. I think the 9x19 was designed for the lighter bullets, and using the 147 grain is trying to make it behave more like a .45, slow and heavy. In my own testing, with a Beretta 92 and a Star Model 30, the lighter bullets tended to give tighter groups than the 147 grain. That was years ago, and perhaps the loading tables we were using weren't up to snuff on the 147 gr bullets. I guess it depends whether you want your 9mm to behave more like a .357, or a .45. You'd think with all the power the .357 delivers, it might really do well with the 158 gr bullets, but according to the stuff I've read, the 125 gr is the number 1 manstopper of any caliber. So I tend to go fast and light in all my ammo except for the 230 gr .45, which is something like 1 percent less deadly than the 125 gr .357. But use what you like, and what your gun shoots best. Bullet weight doesn't mean squat if you're not hitting where you're aiming.

[yote]

To calculate energy, E = mv2. The velocity is squared, so it becomes more important than weight/mass. However, bigger bullets expand larger and make bigger holes.

[Ninjatarian]

Just two quick things- Watch this videos- there's no reason to ever carry FMJ
FMJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Sh9oQDJc
HP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bV23...eature=channel

Second, heres a great run down of calibers and which ammo works best for each. Tons of great into at the top if you have the time too-
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

[TriggerMan]

Just two quick things- Watch this videos- there's no reason to ever carry FMJ
FMJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2Sh9oQDJc
HP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bV23...eature=channel

Second, heres a great run down of calibers and which ammo works best for each. Tons of great into at the top if you have the time too-
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

The first two videos are "tests" using carbines and .40 S&W. That has zip to do with 3 inch barrel CC weapons done in 9mm.

The last link is good but a bit dated.

[Ninjatarian]

The first two videos are "tests" using carbines and .40 S&W. That has zip to do with 3 inch barrel CC weapons done in 9mm.

The last link is good but a bit dated.

1st- Barrel length doesnt matter- Its an experimental controll (both use the same barrel). In a shorter barrel you would have the same results, just less draumatic. 2nd- Caliber was never specified. Given that .40 is the most popular LEO cartidge, its an ideal example.

[jg rider]

Have you seen these

http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/L...n-testing.aspx

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

[CJB]

Handguns? Stopping power? Poor at best.
Ya want stopping power, carry a large bore shotgun.... but I digress.

If it functions in your pistol, use it. If some flying ashtray functions, use that.

Prayer helps too. So does a real mean attitude.