A CC permit holders worst nightmare....

[TheTman]

Our worst nightmare came true for a Houston CHL permit holder when he got in a shootout with 2 robbers, and ended up killing the clerk at thes store. Video and story at: http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl

CHL holder fired shot that killed store clerk


HOUSTON (FOX 26) -
Houston Police confirm it was a customer with a concealed handgun license who accidentally shot and killed a store clerk. The CHL holder was trying to protect Tyrza Smith, 26, from armed robbers, but something went terribly wrong and she was killed.

It happened on May 17 at the Family Dollar located at 6951 Bellfort in southeast Houston.

Police say Dwight Richardson, 20, and another man who hasn't been arrested are accused of bursting into the store, locking the front door and holding a gun to the clerk's head.

"They come in, they got guns out and they're threatening people in there. The CHL holder had every right to defend himself and that clerk," said Fox 26 legal analyst Chris Tritico.

The customer tried to leave but noticed the door was locked.

He pulled out his weapon and got in a gunfight with the robbers. Smith was caught in the crossfire, and ballistics tests show the CHL holder killed her.

Should the customer have pulled his weapon, especially since most robbers are happy just getting the cash?

It's a split second decision all legal gun holders pray they'll never face.

Kyle Dekay learned in his CHL class to turn and run unless there's an immediate threat to life.

"If at all possible, if there's a small opening, get out of there. Hightail it. The last thing you should ever do is go and draw for your weapon," he said.

Gun dealer Jim Pruett can't say for sure what he would have done.

"It's a tough one, and every situation demands a different reaction," Pruett said.

Each year there are thousands of cases of gun owners successfully defending themselves. Tritico says it will likely be up to a grand jury to decide whether the CHL holder was justified in shooting his gun.

"That's what we have to look at. What was this person thinking? What was he feeling? What were the circumstances at the time he pulled his weapon out?"

The CHL holder could still be sued in civil court even if the deadly force is found to be justified.

[Snidely Whiplash]

I don't even want to think about it. At the very least this guy is in for one long, rough, expensive ride - his hand is stuck in the the bull rope and the bull is p****d. Even if things eventually turn out OK for him legally and financially, he's still got to live with having taken the life of the clerk.

[TheTman]

I feel sorry for the guy, you know he meant well, but we're mostly just ordinary folks, and have no training in how to handle things like that. It would be hard to live with yourself after doing something like that. Thinking you're going to be the hero, and it all goes wrong. I've often thought about what I'd do in a similiar circumstance, and I've decided that if if looked like the clerk would be ok, and the thugs left me alone, then I'd try aand find some cover and try an be a good witness for the cops. Have a good description of the thugs. maybe a tag number, whatever might help. If there was a back exit or something, I'd try to get to that and call 911. I doubt if the thugs are going to let you walk out the front door. That's my best plan, anyone else ever think about what they would do in a situation like that?
The Brady Bunch will use this tragedy for all they can get out it. Things like CC permit holders are loose cannons waiting to go off, and all that type of BS.

[muggsy]

When the perps locked the front door it was a strong indication that things were not going to go well for those inside. The fact that both perps were armed and displayed their weapons was another indication. Since none of us were in the store at the time it is difficult to say whether or not what the law abiding citizen attempted to do was the right thing or not. All we can do is speculate and that doesn't change what occurred.

[7shot]

Just a bad situation all around...damned if you do, damned if you don't. I really feel for the poor guy, he has to live with this forever. Hopefully he won't see any jail time but the family will probably try and take him to the cleaners in civil court.

[Infidel proud]

Wow talk about being delt a bad hand, hope all ends well for him...

I try not to think about what I would do in this or that situation, rather I have established a few questions that I ask myself when in a hairy situation.

1. is my life or anyone elses in immediate risk of serious bodily harm? -If yes, can I effetively engage? ( this second part takes innocent bystanders, as well as your odds of sucess into consideration. Three armed BG's against you alone for example) -If no, you aren't justified to use deadly force, so leave it holstered.
2. is there a reasonable exit available? -if so...use it! -if not hunker down until either, the BG's leave, the cops get there or the answer to question 1 becomes yes.

It is impossible to have a set plan for every situation, instead you must focus on the rules of engagement that you are responsible for and judge your actions on a case by case basis.

[AJBert]

From the sketchy news report and my somewhat limited legal expertise and can't see how the CHL holder can be charged for a law that has been out there for many years:

If during the commission of a crime an individual is killed, regardless of who caused the death, the individual committing the crime is held to be responsible. Or words to that effect.

I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express in the last ten years, but I'm fairly certain this should be enough to keep the CHL holder out of jail and "should" prevent any civil suits.

Any civil suit should be directed at the two individuals who committed the crime. Guess we'll have to see how this one plays out and wait for the "media" to "leak" more facts.

[TheTman]

The CHL holder may not be charged with anything, but he'll be dealing with mental issues the rest of his life I would think. I would anyway. I think that will be worse than any punishment a court might give him. If other customers were in the store, maybe he can get some comfort in knowing he saved some lives, unfortunately, the story doesn't say if there were others in the store or not. I imagine not or probably there'd be some interviews, or at least some mention of bystanders.
And yes, it is impossible to plan for every situation. Some of these thugs are planning on killing any witnesses before they ever step into the store, but you don't know that until it starts to happen, so should you have tried to engage the thugs sooner, or wait until they start killing people? You don't have any idea what their plan is, whether it's just a robbery, or a robbery/execution. Very tough situation to be in there. BG's waving guns around, adenalin kicking in, frightened, I can only imagine what that must be like.
I think a lot about robberies when I'm waiting in line to pay for stuff, and what would I do in that store, where would I find cover, or make an escape. I try to get my business and shopping done during the day when fewer robberies happen, and more people are in the stores. I figure it's those late night qwik-mart and liquor store robberies, that are going to turn out the worst, where the thugs are liable to want to eliminate the witness(es), because they have fewer people to contend with, or execute, and the thugs are probably drugged up, so who knows what they are thinking. As muggsey pointed out, those thugs locked the door, locking everyone in, so that may have been a signal that they were going to get the money then kill everyone. You just don't know until things start happening.
The story says that most robbers are happy to grab the cash then leave, but it seems there are more murders of witnesses than there used to be. Could have been some gang initiation where they were told to eliminate any witnesses. There are so many possibilities, that it's impossible to say what the right thing to do was. The story says he did try to leave, but the door was locked, so there he was, out in the open at the doorway, maybe shooting at the robbers was his only chance to survive. It's a terrible tragedy that will haunt the CHL the rest of his life. Only God knows what would have happened if he'd not drawn his weapon.

[OldLincoln]

From the sketchy news report and my somewhat limited legal expertise and can't see how the CHL holder can be charged for a law that has been out there for many years:

If during the commission of a crime an individual is killed, regardless of who caused the death, the individual committing the crime is held to be responsible. Or words to that effect.

I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express in the last ten years, but I'm fairly certain this should be enough to keep the CHL holder out of jail and "should" prevent any civil suits.

Any civil suit should be directed at the two individuals who committed the crime. Guess we'll have to see how this one plays out and wait for the "media" to "leak" more facts.

Doesn't work that way anymore. The one holding the gun from which the bullet leaves is 100% responsible for damages incurred by that bullet. May not be charged with a crime but civil case is sure to come.

Unless the bad guys have actually shot somebody and threatening others you don't have much to stand on. The case will read the clerk wasn't in any danger until your aggressive and reckless actions of shooting. Nobody can prove it either way so you loose.

Conversely, if the BG starts shooting up the place your actions may be justified and you may get off with a small settlement but you will lose in the dollar arena.

Contingency lawyers almost always win a piece of their case and because of that, most of the time a settlement is cheaper than going to trial. If they win the smallest amount you are liable for court costs and their attorney fees.

[Sage]

Just a terrible outcome. I don't know what I would have done as every situation as different and changes from second to second. As far as I'm concerned this is on the perp.

Condolences to the family.

[jocko]

Imo

From the sketchy news report and my somewhat limited legal expertise and can't see how the CHL holder can be charged for a law that has been out there for many years:

If during the commission of a crime an individual is killed, regardless of who caused the death, the individual committing the crime is held to be responsible. Or words to that effect.

I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express in the last ten years, but I'm fairly certain this should be enough to keep the CHL holder out of jail and "should" prevent any civil suits.

Any civil suit should be directed at the two individuals who committed the crime. Guess we'll have to see how this one plays out and wait for the "media" to "leak" more facts.

ur sjould reallay try sleepng in a Holiday Inn express. They are nice,..

[Yogi 117]

Wow talk about being delt a bad hand, hope all ends well for him...

I try not to think about what I would do in this or that situation, rather I have established a few questions that I ask myself when in a hairy situation.

1. is my life or anyone elses in immediate risk of serious bodily harm? -If yes, can I effetively engage? ( this second part takes innocent bystanders, as well as your odds of sucess into consideration. Three armed BG's against you alone for example) -If no, you aren't justified to use deadly force, so leave it holstered.
2. is there a reasonable exit available? -if so...use it! -if not hunker down until either, the BG's leave, the cops get there or the answer to question 1 becomes yes.

It is impossible to have a set plan for every situation, instead you must focus on the rules of engagement that you are responsible for and judge your actions on a case by case basis.

+1...a spot on assessment, knowing each incident will be different!

[dkmatthews]

Part 1 of 2

Thoroughly relevant to the OP and the mess the CHL finds himself in, this message was forwarded to me by a good friend and tactical training partner:

While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

Background

First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.

The Enemy

Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.

Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. **** their own momma.

We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody. I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".

You

Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.

Dynamics of Encounters

Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the **** out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

[dkmatthews]

Part 2 of 2

Thoroughly relevant to the OP and the mess the CHL finds himself in, this message was forwarded to me by a good friend and tactical training partner:

When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough motherfuckers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired. Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some ************ up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun. In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".

Guns and weapons

The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.

Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.

Training

We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.

After

if it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an ******* just remember wait for your attorney.

Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.

Worlds

We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.

[tv_racin_fan]

I'm thinkin once you find the escape route locked or they tell you to move to the back of the store it is time to go into go mode. They aint locked the door or told you to go to the back for YOUR good health. Even then you need to be sure of your backstop and your target.