Gouged

[jeep45238]

Hi jeep45238, I'm kinda fond of my truck....Its a 2002 and still runs like a top and I need a truck to pull a trailer and a boat so a smaller car wouldnt work for me plus the only cost of the truck is the tag, insurance, maintenance and gas....Now if i went out and bought a new smaller car for 25 grand or so then my transportation cost would be much much more....I like to take good care of my cars and trucks and like you drive them until they die.....

Dude - you're full of ****, sorry. The boat is called a luxury, and so is the truck since the boat is your excuse to keep the truck.

Who the hell said anything about buying new, and taking a massive hit on it's value as soon as it leaves the lot? I can go out and spend $2500 and have reliable fuel efficient transportation that costs less to insure, maintain, and fuel than even a 2.5L 2002 Ranger 5 speed.

Let some other fool take the depreciation hit. And seriously evaluate your reasoning and position before bitching about fuel costs again. Only reason I bought my truck was to make money - and I sold it when tuition came and I was no longer making money with it.

:32:

[getsome]

Sorry jeep, didn't mean to over torque your nut there guy!!!!! So as Rosanne Rosannadanna would say "Never Mind".....

[jeep45238]

Sorry jeep, didn't mean to over torque your nut there guy!!!!! So as Rosanne Rosannadanna would say "Never Mind".....

Nothing wrong with having luxuries, but recognize what they are, and be willing to get rid of them if you can't afford to keep them around.

There's a huge difference between necessity and luxury. Part of the reason I'm looking for a chainsaw or weed wacker right now - make a moped that will get me 100-200 mile range on less than a gallon of gas.

Sorry for the french, but F&*% the tax man.

[jeep45238]

Hybrid Vehicles: Worth The Price?

Hybrid vehicles are beginning to edge their way into mainstream advertising and on our public roads. The manufacturers that produce these vehicles generally market them as environmentally friendly and big on gas mileage. These vehicles are campaigned as the vehicle we should all be driving daily, followed by small diesel vehicles powered by waste grease from restaurants, and then by purely electric vehicles. They do have two facts in their balance, better mileage and emissions. But, do they have anything that counts against them, as things that may convince a potential buyer to walk away from the sale? There are a very few strong arguments to be made against them, with the author believing that they are not worth the hassle. Why? Well, mainly, they don't get impressive fuel economy, they are overly complex and heavy, make little financial sense, there are better existing technologies that could be used, and the vehicles are a waste of resources. In this paper, the author will be looking only at vehicle models offered in both hybrid and gasoline varieties, so that the differences can easily and accurately measured.
The first topic to plate is fuel economy. According to the vehicle's manufacturers, Honda, Toyota, Ford, Saturn, and Chevy, the 2007 model hybrids get better fuel economy in the city, they average less than 8 mpg better than their gas only companions. On the highway, they do even worse, averaging only 2 mpg higher, with a best of a mere 5-mpg better, which ironically was achieved by Ford's small SUV. Why these vehicles? Why

2

not vehicles like the Toyota Prius or the now defunct Honda Insight? The models given are offered in both gas only and hybrid versions, and also represent a wide variety of
body choices, from small sedans to full size pickup trucks. The fuel economy of these vehicles certainly doesn't impress the author, whose 10 year old Saturn gets 30 mpg in the city, which is right on par for the average of the brand new hybrid vehicles. My 1997 Saturn also gets 32 mpg on the highway, above the 30-mpg average of the 2007 hybrid models. According to the Chevrolet, the Aveo gets 27 mpg city and 37 mpg highway while being small, cheap (under $11,000 brand new), and light weight (Aveo). This simple recipe of weight reduction has been used for a long time, from the early 90's Geo Metros that obtained 50-mpg highway, to the small commuter vehicles in Europe, such as the Opel Meriva minivan, which can get 47 miles to the gallon using a small diesel engine. While weight reduction does have many other benefits, it will be discussed later in this essay.
The second major factor that is working against hybrid vehicles is their weight. On average, the hybrid vehicles offered for sale in America average 460 pounds heavier than their gasoline brethren. Although it may not seem like much considering 3-4 occupants in a vehicle weigh approximately that amount, the Environmental Protection Agency states that removing 4% of a vehicle's weight will increase it's fuel economy by 3% (EPA). For every extra 100 pounds, a car must burn .000008 gallons of gasoline per mile per hour (Newton's Second Law). While that may not seem like a lot, with a weight difference of 736 pounds between the gas and hybrid versions of the Silverado, it adds up

3

very fast. If you were to add an additional 736 pounds to the gas only Chevy Silverado, it would need to burn over a third of a gallon more fuel per mile at 60 miles per hour.

[jeep45238]

Ironically, the weight loss strategy is also used in high performance vehicles and racecars to increase their ability to accelerate, turn better, and stop quicker. The addition of a second drive train introduces extra motors, as well as the gasoline motor already under the hood. It also adds the additional weight from a large battery, complex wiring, as well as the electronic controls required to smoothly transition from gasoline to electric, or combined power. Why is weight loss so effective? By reducing how hard a engine has to work to move a vehicle, you can use a smaller engine to achieve the same performance. With less weight to fight against, the vehicle can also turn harsher and brake faster. Anybody who has nearly been run off the road can surely appreciate the benefits of weight loss.
Hybrid vehicles also make very little financial sense. They initially cost a very hefty amount more, sometimes over $12,000 more for some models, like the Honda Accord and Chevrolet Silverado (Honda.com and Chevrolet.com). The vehicles themselves get a small percentage gain in fuel economy, but not nearly enough to come close to closing the gap in purchase price. The 2007 Honda Accord Hybrid manages only 2-mpg city and 1-mpg highway better than the traditional gasoline version, yet costs $12,400 more. Another important fact is that hybrids depreciate much faster than your average vehicle on American roads today. 'How can that be?' you may ask. With the technology surrounding them changing so fast, why would anybody purchase a 2003 Toyota Prius when they can purchase a 2004 model for a slightly more money and get

4

better economy, power, and handling? (2003 and 2004 Toyota Prius Overview) Americans, simply put, don't want old technology in a world where it changes so rapidly. The other un-accounted for cost of ownership is the eventual disposal of the old batteries, and installation of the new ones. From personal experience as a former car part salesman, I say with confidence that a quality car battery for today's gasoline motors range from $50 and up, with $75-80 being the median. Those prices are for batteries weighing around 30 pounds and hold about 12 volts, mere child's play to the Camry hybrid's massive 150 pound, 244 volt battery it carries around. Batteries also come with disposal fees if done at a garage, since it is considered hazardous materials due to the lead and acid inside of them.
Hybrids may someday improve to the point where everything I have said so far is no longer true. They may eventually become lighter, more efficient, and more economical. However, until then, we already have developed, proven technologies for higher mileage, lower emissions vehicles. Although many people can't get a grasp on the concept, the diesel engine is one of them. Not the big monster that resides within tractor-trailers, but rather small displacement 4 cylinder ones. American carmakers in Europe already employ them in force, making hundreds of thousands of small diesel powered vehicles every year. The advancement of modern technology has rid them of soot, particulates in the exhaust, a horrible smell, and the sound of a ticking time bomb. Diesel engines can create more power, using less fuel, using a smaller motor, than a gasoline motor, and uses less parts for greater simplicity. Vehicles that have long passed away on American roads, such as the Volkswagen Fox, are being replaced with more modern

5

versions, such as the 2006 Volkswagen Golf TDI, which can go longer between oil changes while getting over 40 mpg combined (EPA). Honda has been able to set 19 different world speed records while maintaining 92 mpg in a specially developed Accord powered by a diesel engine, which went on sale in Europe in 2004 (Honda Diesel). Another method uses water as fuel. Plain old tap water out of your home faucet, costing less than 75 cents per gallon. Salt water can also be used, costing only your time to collect it and pour it under your hood. An inventor from the Philippines named Daniel Dingel has been using water to fuel his vehicles for approximately 30 years. By using electrolysis, he separates hydrogen from water and runs his engine off of the hydrogen (Daniel Dingel). He is one of the few who have attempted, and succeed in running a car using water as fuel, as he has multiple patents pending on the technology. A video interview is on the website Youtube.com, explaining the concept and the political problems involved with the design (Youtube.com). One other common source is something that we are all familiar with, liquid propane gas. That same fuel that cooks our meat on grills also fuels vehicles across the country already, such as forklifts inside of warehouses, and even on some amusement park rides (such as the dragster ride at Six Flags Kentucky). Propane vehicles produce very little emissions, and a standard gasoline vehicle can easily be converted over to propane for less than $1000 for 4 and 6 cylinder motors (Got Propane?). Vehicles running on propane also are more efficient, with many off road vehicles able to run all day on less than 6 gallons of fuel, compared to approximately double that amount. In addition to this, propane can be found in nearly every city in America, so refueling isn't an issue.

[jeep45238]

6

The last issue to be discussed is the waste of resources that hybrids create. Yes, I am saying that the hybrid vehicles that are beneficial for the planet waste resources, and as such, pollute more than your average car over a larger area. One such example is the large batteries housed within the vehicles; the materials used to make a single toxic battery for a hybrid's electric drive system can make approximately 5 batteries for normal vehicles (150 pounds of material versus about 30 pounds of material). In addition, electric motors require copper windings within them, which when combined with movement over a magnet will produce motion. Sounds great, until one looks at the copper shortage we currently face, and how that copper could be used in building materials for example. The sheer number of raw materials and ores that are shoved into a single vehicle to get a smidge of better fuel economy is ridiculous.
The hybrid vehicles of today simply aren't worth the financial or economic troubles, nor are they worth the waste of resources used to produce the secondary drive train. Instead, the manpower and resources should be used to pursue alternative forms of energy rather than the blending of existing technologies to create money wasting mediocre performing vehicles.

Works Cited

"2003 Toyota Prius Overview." FuelEconomy.Gov. 2007. EPA. 26 Feb 2007 <http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/18608.shtml>

"2004 Toyota Prius Overview." FuelEconomy.Gov. 2007. EPA. 26 Feb 2007 <http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/19813.shtml>
"2007 Chevrolet Silverado Classic Specifications." GM Vehicle Showroom. 2007. General Motors Corporation. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.gmbuypower.com/pages/submodelSpecifications/2007_Chevrolet_Silverado+Classic_Hybrid.jsp;jsessi onid=B16361847B9911E279CAA5408EA3FD0E>

"Chevrolet." Chevrolet.com. 2007. General Motors Corporation. 19 Feb 2007 <2010 Cars, SUVs, Trucks, Crossovers & Vans | Chevrolet />

"Daniel Dingel." About.com. 2007. About.com. 19 Feb 2007 <http://inventors.about.com/od/filipinoscientists/p/Daniel_Dingel.htm>

"Ford Vehicles." Ford Vehicles. 2007. Ford Motor Company. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.fordvehicles.com/?referrer=http%3A%2F%2FWWW%2EFord%2Ecom>

8

"Honda Cars." Honda. 2007. American Honda Motor Company, Incorporated. 19 Feb 2007 <http://automobiles.honda.com>

"Honda Diesel Sets New World Records." Honda Worldwide. 06 May 2004. Honda Motor Company. 19 Feb 2007 <http://world.honda.com/news/2004/4040506.html>

"Model 1 Vehicle Characteristics." Fuel Economy. 2007. EPA. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001car1tablef.jsp?column=1&id=21884>

Propane Conversion Kits." Got Propane?. 2004. Got Propane?. 7 Mar 2007 <http://www.gotpropane.com/p4.html>

"Saturn." Saturn. 2007. General Motors Corporation. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.saturn.com/saturn/SaturnIndex.jsp>

"Toyota Cars/Trucks/SUV's & Accessories." Toyota.com. 2007. Toyota Motor Sales. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.toyota.com/>

United States of America. EPA.A Glance at Clean Freight Strategies Weight Reduction. Office of Transportation and Air Quality, 2004

9

"Water Car....Daniel Dingel Youtube.com. 25 May 2006. Youtube.com. 19 Feb 2007 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw>

[getsome]

Looks like I really pi$$ed in the hornets nest when I posted this thread.....Oh well tomorrow is another day.....

[ripley16]

Looks like I really pi$$ed in the hornets nest when I posted this thread.....Oh well tomorrow is another day.....

...maybe that Teleporter will be up and running by then...

[Dietrich]

Global warming is a myth

It may very well be but cow flatulence is for real.

[Bawanna]

I drive right thru a methane conversion site right in the middle of an old dairy farm twice a day. It's happening. I don't know if it works but they are somehow making it.
As far as fuel cost-just think government / conpsiracy/ kick back/ Al Gore propaganda. Nuff said.

[jeep45238]

I drive right thru a methane conversion site right in the middle of an old dairy farm twice a day. It's happening. I don't know if it works but they are somehow making it.
As far as fuel cost-just think government / conpsiracy/ kick back/ Al Gore propaganda. Nuff said.

Essentially converting from efi or carb gasoline, to carb'd gaseous flammable vapors. Propane is catching on pretty fast.

[ltxi]

Oh, good lord....the depression in petrofuel prices are/were a temporary effect of the recent economic disaster. With global demand up and still climbing, of course the price is going to go way up over the long term. Supply and demand/economics 101...just get over it. Buy more fuel efficient vehicles or, like me with my Avalanche, just suck it up.

[johnh]

Hmm...I guess I blew my carbon footprint last week. Bought a Charger. Hemi, 5.7, 372 horsepower from an engine that sounds like a car should.

Personally if you can afford it drive it. For my family we need bigger just to haul all the kids stuff around!

John

[Bawanna]

Hmm...I guess I blew my carbon footprint last week. Bought a Charger. Hemi, 5.7, 372 horsepower from an engine that sounds like a car should.

Personally if you can afford it drive it. For my family we need bigger just to haul all the kids stuff around!

John

You rock, I can smell the tire smoke from here. Have fun with that. That did maybe set back your Tommy SBR a tad bit?

[mel5051]

Hrm, only $2.54 here in the Motor City 'burbs...