Armed robbery at 2:00 AM after Mall shopping

[RRP]

make a distinct movement, see if the "suspect" does the same. take action at that point, lets presume you're paying attention in the first place.

I don't know what you mean by "distinct movement". If you are suggesting a movement that is consistent with reaching for a weapon, that would be a bad idea.

[RevRay]

I may be way off base, but let me throw this out there anyway. Let's assume that no bad guy would approach someone if they knew ahead of time that the victim was carrying a weapon. Secondly, let's assume that the bad guy is probably not a bright as you. If those things are true ... then it stands to reason that they probably aren't expecting you to be carrying, which puts you in the driver's seat. They think that they are ... but if you have been practicing awareness, and if you're carrying, then you're actually in the driver's seat ... you have the upper hand.

[Bawanna]

Does the bad guy have a weapon in your scenario?

I think what Jerry means is something like change direction, stop and see if they stop, run and see if they run. A good one here would be to pull out your phone and act like your calling Walker Texas Ranger to come take care of business.

Not so much drawing your gun to get a response.

[JERRY]

I don't know what you mean by "distinct movement". If you are suggesting a movement that is consistent with reaching for a weapon, that would be a bad idea.

lets use a little common sense here. lets pretend you are walking along the north side of a row of parked cars and notice a "suspect" doing the same.

cross the driving lane to the south side of the row of parked cars or, walk between cars to another row.... et cetera. there are things you should know and do before drawing a gun on a nondescript potential threat like is the "suspect" parroting your moves?

I guess you're use to reading arm chair commando mall ninja stuff on the internet. that wont be entertained here.

[JERRY]

Does the bad guy have a weapon in your scenario?

I think what Jerry means is something like change direction, stop and see if they stop, run and see if they run. A good one here would be to pull out your phone and act like your calling Walker Texas Ranger to come take care of business.

Not so much drawing your gun to get a response.

yes, thank you for understanding. I didn't read your post before I typed mine.

[JERRY]

It is a fine line and I've only pulled my pistol once to hold it out of sight behind my leg which ended up with a bum walking rapidly away....If I had felt strongly enough to point it at him then he would have already been shot....

It's a fine line but it's also a dangerous world out there and I'm going to err on the side of caution and explain it later if need be....

this time a year is a good reason to have a centennial or bodyguard type J frame in an outer coat pocket. you can cover a "suspect" and nobody is the wiser.

[Allen]

closing the barn door after horse ran out doesn't make sense. neither does shooting at your own car when all the criminal has is it and Christmas presents.

pay attention to your surroundings, that is the first clue.

of all the people coming and going at that time, in that location, why do you think the criminals targeted this particular couple?

From what I could tell from the victim's comments to the news, even though the Mall parking lot was full of cars there were no other people walking to their cars at that particular time. The victim admitted he should have been more "aware" and should have returned to the Mall entrance when he realized they were the only ones walking to their car. Don't know if this is what the BGs were looking for, or if a man with his wife, little child, and an arm full of packages was the signal.
Hopefully we'll hear more when they catch the cruds.

As was asked above, I also wondered at what point your weapon would be raised from the side of your leg and what if your timing was off just a slit second and the BG brought his out first. No indication here whether he had his hand in his jacket all the time during the approach or not, but it sounded like the victim didn't realize they were closing in that much until it was too late to do anything as the wife had already placed the child in the back seat by then. Again, be very aware of your surroundings at all times.

All the comments here have been very educational.

[RRP]

make a distinct movement, see if the "suspect" does the same. take action at that point, lets presume you're paying attention in the first place.

I don't know what you mean by "distinct movement". If you are suggesting a movement that is consistent with reaching for a weapon, that would be a bad idea.

I guess you're use to reading arm chair commando mall ninja stuff on the internet. that wont be entertained here.

Your response is a bit harsh, Mr. Jerry. That won't be entertained here.

Please reread my initial comment, above. It was not an indictment on your point-of-view. It was an acknowledgement that I wasn't sure what you meant by "distinct movement". That terminology is very vague. It can mean a lot of things--some of which, I agree, are appropriate responses. Altering course and moving away from the threat is an indicated response. Putting distance between you and the threat is an indicated response. But that's not what you said.

Because you were unclear, interpretation was left to the reader. I didn't make any assumptions about your intent. My post simply stated that "IF" you were referring to a furtive movement, that would be a bad idea.

[JERRY]

Your response is a bit harsh, Mr. Jerry. That won't be entertained here.

Please reread my initial comment, above. It was not an indictment on your point-of-view. It was an acknowledgement that I wasn't sure what you meant by "distinct movement". That terminology is very vague. It can mean a lot of things--some of which, I agree, are appropriate responses. Altering course and moving away from the threat is an indicated response. Putting distance between you and the threat is an indicated response. But that's not what you said.

Because you were unclear, interpretation was left to the reader. I didn't make any assumptions about your intent. My post simply stated that "IF" you were referring to a furtive movement, that would be a bad idea.

no, you wont getting any mall ninja armchair commando responses from me unless I put some sort of smilie face after it to indicate that it was a tongue in cheek comment, as in I was joking....

[knkali]

Agreed, the line is fine, with the gun down by your leg your not threatening, not pointing it etc.

Brandishing is a really crappy law, so open to interpretation.

Some consider printing thru your shirt brandishing. BH Bull Hockey!

If the bad guys mind changes and they reverse course, mission accomplished. If it turns out it's not a bad guy and they call, you express your fears and advise of potential danger signals and if your lucky and get a good officer you'll be on your way in no time.

BAM! on point. BG will turn good guy wont give a sheet. He/she is trying to get to their car too at 2 am so no harm no foul.

I do 80% fanny pack carry and have found I can palm my weapon while it is fully concealed. I do consider this a big advantage of this type of carry. I can turn and shoot through the pack or fully deploy the gun. Nice options IMHO. Usually at night in a parking lot, if I see someone approaching me, I will palm the gun and square off (blade him) so my muzzle is pointing at him. I also will put my weak arm out and use that as a distance guide. If they continue to get into my personal space, I will say loudly that's close enough. However, after a couple of these encounters, I have found that I am focused 1000% on the guy approaching and not the blind side. I have to get better.

[getsome]

Thats a good idea Knkali keeping your hand on your pistol without being seen....I like to keep my hand in my pocket on my gun when in a parking lot or dangerous area and it looks normal to anyone that might look my way but I can have it out in a hurry if need be....

I need to clarify a previous post...I once did pull my pistol and hold it by my leg to be ready because that time I was pumping gas and there was an obviously drunk or high on something bum going around the lot and he had a 4 foot piece of 2x2 in his hand...He was large, loud and very belligerant when begging for money so I wasn't going to fool around with him while he had that stick in his hand.....When he got to me I let him see the gun in my hand next to my leg but nobody else could since I was between my truck and the gas pump...The bum turned and left the parking lot and I reholstered my pistol in my pocket....Thats the only time I have pulled it on anyone but in that situation it seemed to be a good idea at the time and he result was good....

Now something else I was thinking about last night was that we seem to imagine these situations as dealing with only one BG but in reality in more and more cases the thugs seem to run in packs of 3 or more in a robbery crew with at least one having a gun....In a case where I'm outnumbered and surrounded by punks that get off hurting and possibly killing people I think it might be best to give them my wallet and car keys rather than pull my gun and possibly have it taken from me by force and used on me....Only thing worse than getting shot by a BG would be getting shot with your own gun by a BG....

[Bawanna]

In your last scenario the force multiplier being 3 and or more dirt bags versus you alone, increases the threat all by itself. If they are threatening harm, are all in close in a threatening manner then it's time for face shooting. This would not be an instance where you put the gun by your leg and act scary.

If the gun is already at your leg, this would be the time to point it to the ring leader.

Biggest to smallest, smallest to biggest, alphabetical order, don't matter. If they turn tail which they usually will at first site of anything but submission then you need to stop shooting. Shoot fast before they turn.

[knkali]

I think Bawanna is bringing up the concept of "disparity of force" when there are threats from multiple BGs

Disparity of Force is defined as a situation that any reasonable person would conclude places you at an overwhelming disadvantage in your effort to protect yourself against immediate and serious bodily injury

[getsome]

Agree with that, Sometimes you might find yourself in a no win situation where it's shoot or die....I still say our best weapon is between our ears and to do the best we can to stay out of those kinds of deals by using street smarts and common sense.....So far that has worked for me but you never know....I guess it all comes down to hope for the best but prepare for the worst and be ready and most importantly, willing to pull the trigger if the time comes.....

[Bawanna]

That's the one. I never had much grasp on them bigger words but I'm sure thats what they call it.

Being outnumbered even by unarmed dirt bags constitutes a threat in itself.

Just like a guy twice as big as you are is in your favor if you have to dispatch him.

The guys here tell me all the time how I'm kind of lucky in that beings as I can't run, have limited options for retreat and a 12 year old kid with a broken arm is a superior force, I'm always the underdog.

I guess with my attitude and short fuse that might be a good thing.