Armed robbery at 2:00 AM after Mall shopping

[Bawanna]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, them is words to live by.

Had a poster that said that on the wall of my hospital room when I switched transportation modes. Good plan.

[Longitude Zero]

If I am approached and the BG says anything to intimate it is a robbery and has a firearm in his/her hand I do not care if it is pointing at me or not. I would draw and fire instantly. I can easily articulate I feared for my life. A rule LEO's learn from virtually day one is that if you wait to see a gun in the BG's hand you will get to see what comes out the end of it.


What it comes down to is this: Being able to articulate that you feared for your life or the lives of friends/family with you and that that fear was reasonable based upon the totality of circumstances. I cannot tell you how many BG's were justifiably shot and many killed for pointing their finger in a jacket pocket to make the victim think they had a gun.


The presence of lack thereof of a firearm is NOT the determining factor in making a shooting justifiable. It IS being able to explain that you were:


1. In fear of your life
2. That fear was reasonable based upon the circumstances at the instant you made the decision to fire your weapon. Aka the Reasonable Man Standard.

[knkali]

If I am approached and the BG says anything to intimate it is a robbery and has a firearm in his/her hand I do not care if it is pointing at me or not. I would draw and fire instantly. I can easily articulate I feared for my life. A rule LEO's learn from virtually day one is that if you wait to see a gun in the BG's hand you will get to see what comes out the end of it.


What it comes down to is this: Being able to articulate that you feared for your life or the lives of friends/family with you and that that fear was reasonable based upon the totality of circumstances. I cannot tell you how many BG's were justifiably shot and many killed for pointing their finger in a jacket pocket to make the victim think they had a gun

The presence of lack thereof of a firearm is NOT the determining factor in making a shooting justifiable. It IS being able to explain that you were:


1. In fear of your life
2. That fear was reasonable based upon the circumstances at the instant you made the decision to fire your weapon. Aka the Reasonable Man Standard.

Fukkn A

[RRP]

If I am approached and the BG says anything to intimate it is a robbery and has a firearm in his/her hand I do not care if it is pointing at me or not. I would draw and fire instantly. I can easily articulate I feared for my life. A rule LEO's learn from virtually day one is that if you wait to see a gun in the BG's hand you will get to see what comes out the end of it.


What it comes down to is this: Being able to articulate that you feared for your life or the lives of friends/family with you and that that fear was reasonable based upon the totality of circumstances. I cannot tell you how many BG's were justifiably shot and many killed for pointing their finger in a jacket pocket to make the victim think they had a gun.


The presence of lack thereof of a firearm is NOT the determining factor in making a shooting justifiable. It IS being able to explain that you were:


1. In fear of your life
2. That fear was reasonable based upon the circumstances at the instant you made the decision to fire your weapon. Aka the Reasonable Man Standard.

This is a very good Readers Digest version of justifiable use of force. It really is the core of an affirmative defense. One can't emphasize enough the importance of being able to "articulate" the reason for shooting. But it's not a topic I've ever seen discussed in this forum.

I'd like to recommend that you begin a new thread, dedicated to the justifiable use of force. This is important information for anyone who carries. In time, administrators may decide to make it a sticky.

Excellent contribution to the topic.

[Bawanna]

While ok to discuss this as it is important, it's also a huge gray hole and way too open to interpretation.

The best articulated statements sometimes do not work. Zimmerman is a good example.

LE has it's own set of rules of engagement or Use of Force Continuum. It's actually not much different than a legal civillians but has a few differences, like pursuit etc.

Probably not a good idea create a resource venue here on the forum.

Discussion is good, something a bottom feeding lawyer could use probably not so good.

[getsome]

This has been a really good discussion about what would you do in this or that situation bla bla bla....IMHO here is how it is when it comes to using deadly force in todays world, There is Theory....There is what guys on a gun forum say they would do....There is what Law Enforcement Text Books say...There is what the Law says in your particular state about what is legal and what isn't and unfortunately there is what the REAL WORLD does and in the real world if you shoot and kill a black teenager who says stick um up and is found to have only had his finger in a coat pocket pointed at you then wait and see what happens next....

No matter how scared you might have been at the time and how well you articulate that fear in court your butt is screwed and once Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Piers Morgan and the rest of the MSNBC goons start beating the war drums it aint going to matter what you say, your a$$ is going to be BBQ in molasses....It aint right but thats just how it is and as easy as it is to say I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 you better be ready for your whole life to go right up the old suckalux tube forever more....

CCW is a HUGE responsibility and not something to be taken lightly....In a perfect world it would be cut and dry and oh so simple but this is just how it is in the real world and sometimes it sucks....

[knkali]

This has been a really good discussion about what would you do in this or that situation bla bla bla....IMHO here is how it is when it comes to using deadly force in todays world, There is Theory....There is what guys on a gun forum say they would do....There is what Law Enforcement Text Books say...There is what the Law says in your particular state about what is legal and what isn't and unfortunately there is what the REAL WORLD does and in the real world if you shoot and kill a black teenager who says stick um up and is found to have only had his finger in a coat pocket pointed at you then wait and see what happens next....

No matter how scared you might have been at the time and how well you articulate that fear in court your butt is screwed and once Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Piers Morgan and the rest of the MSNBC goons start beating the war drums it aint going to matter what you say, your a$$ is going to be BBQ in molasses....It aint right but thats just how it is and as easy as it is to say I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 you better be ready for your whole life to go right up the old suckalux tube forever more....

CCW is a HUGE responsibility and not something to be taken lightly....In a perfect world it would be cut and dry and oh so simple but this is just how it is in the real world and sometimes it sucks....

Dude, Fukkn A

[johnh]

This has been a really good discussion about what would you do in this or that situation bla bla bla....IMHO here is how it is when it comes to using deadly force in todays world, There is Theory....There is what guys on a gun forum say they would do....There is what Law Enforcement Text Books say...There is what the Law says in your particular state about what is legal and what isn't and unfortunately there is what the REAL WORLD does and in the real world if you shoot and kill a black teenager who says stick um up and is found to have only had his finger in a coat pocket pointed at you then wait and see what happens next....

No matter how scared you might have been at the time and how well you articulate that fear in court your butt is screwed and once Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Piers Morgan and the rest of the MSNBC goons start beating the war drums it aint going to matter what you say, your a$$ is going to be BBQ in molasses....It aint right but thats just how it is and as easy as it is to say I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 you better be ready for your whole life to go right up the old suckalux tube forever more....

CCW is a HUGE responsibility and not something to be taken lightly....In a perfect world it would be cut and dry and oh so simple but this is just how it is in the real world and sometimes it sucks....

Very true. When I was teaching CCW classes, we covered law, and many of the points raised by previous posters about what is and is not a legally defensible, self-defense shooting. But I also stressed the very important advise Getsome is giving. We have seen all to clearly demonstrated that no matter how in the right you may be logically and legally, the most important trial may be that carried out in the media for the rest of your life. Weigh this carefully in making decisions that increase the potential for having to defend yourself using deadly force.

[knkali]

Very true. When I was teaching CCW classes, we covered law, and many of the points raised by previous posters about what is and is not a legally defensible, self-defense shooting. But I also stressed the very important advise Getsome is giving. We have seen all to clearly demonstrated that no matter how in the right you may be logically and legally, the most important trial may be that carried out in the media for the rest of your life. Weigh this carefully in making decisions that increase the potential for having to defend yourself using deadly force.

So really there are two fights for your life. The actual event then the aftermath. Often, I ask myself is it really worth it? What will I save? I put myself and my family through hell, probably will have zero money afterward and my life is ruined --and that is if I am involved in a good shoot. SO I have contemplated many times if I should continue to carry. However, the thought of giving a BG the power of whether I live or die by his whim does not appeal to me either. Please cheer me up guys.

[Armybrat]

Here in Texas our "Castle Doctrine" provides immunity to civil suits in the aftermath of a good shoot.

[knkali]

wow Texas is far more advanced than here

[Bawanna]

Or perhaps less advanced. They left things the way they should be, the way they used to be before lawyers, Jesse Jackson, Fat Al, and Ovomit.

[Glock23]

Re: Armed robbery at 2:00 AM after Mall shopping

Here in Texas our "Castle Doctrine" provides immunity to civil suits in the aftermath of a good shoot.

Illinois, surprisingly, is the same way, though we have no Castle/Stand Your Ground laws...

Basically, if the shooting is justified, you are immune from civil suits by the suspect and/or their family.

We may be late in the game for concealed carry, but we have one of the better self defense laws.

[Tilos]

Very true. When I was teaching CCW classes, we covered law, and many of the points raised by previous posters about what is and is not a legally defensible, self-defense shooting. But I also stressed the very important advise Getsome is giving. We have seen all to clearly demonstrated that no matter how in the right you may be logically and legally, the most important trial may be that carried out in the media for the rest of your life. Weigh this carefully in making decisions that increase the potential for having to defend yourself using deadly force.

This...and I'm pulling the trigger, as I'm already labeled as a racist just by my age and skin color, and too old to worry about the rest of my life.
For me, weighing it carefully has already been done and won't be happening in the "heat of the moment" or rethought like a lawyer in court in the aftermath, or the media.
And that's the reason I didn't read thru all the "what if" bs here, as my decision has been made.
jmo

[Longitude Zero]

I have NO concern about the pole puffing race baiters the get on tv. In fact our local media has ignored completely Jackson the last times he has been in town protesting. Here in OK we too have immunity from civil suits if the shooting is justified. The bar to meet that requirement was set very low by state statute. In fact in order for the DA to find a shooting non-justified they virtually have to prove "beyond any and all doubt".