CW380 or CT380 - which has proven to "work better" - what about the CW45?

[Papersniper]

I know the dimensional differences in these two pistols. Setting that aside for the moment, I was wondering what thoughts ya'all might have on which is the more reliable pistol? Which is easier to disassemble for cleaning? Is the slide about the same difficulty to hand cycle for each?

I am a collector more than a shooter, but I do carry something most times (right now it's a Shield 9mm and a Kahr CM9). I'd probably rarely ever carry a little 380, but I do like the idea of having one or the other. The only 380 I have now is a Glock 42, which is a bit large for its capacity IMHO.

On the bigger side of things, my gun safe is wanting another 45 ACP pistol. I have only a Glock 30 right now that's carry size although it weighs more than the CW/CM45s. I'd like to add another smaller 45 ACP to the safe. The CW45 appeals to me more than the CM45. Again, I am a bit concerned about the reliably and comfort shooting of the CW45.....I hear about fired cases hitting the shooter in the head, bullets coming loose in a magazine carrier, and the inability of being able to hand eject a live round in the chamber. True? Old information on those models? Or a significant problem? I'd like to hear experiences from the forum members.

PS - I really like the little Kahr CM9 I bought, and if other Kahrs are are nice, I will probably add to my collection.

[Bawanna]

There should be any noticeable dimensional differences between those too. Both are near identical except for some minor exterior cosmetics and the barrel which don't make a bit of difference to me.

I'd go for the CW45 myself. I have a PM45 and I like it very much, carried it for years. Still wouldn't mind a CW although I really don't have a need for one. The issues you mention are mostly old news and easily fixed now that we've pretty much sorted them all out.
Cases hitting the head isn't only with the CW45. My PM45 does it too if I get sloppy with grip.

If it were me, I'd skip the 380, keep the CM9 and get a CW45. Cover the bases as it were.

Course the 45 might sour you on the 9mm after you get comfy with it.

[RolandD]

IMO, the CT is easier to control and less likely to limp wrist than the CW, but if you haven't had any issues with your CM9 you probably won't with the CW380.

My wife and I got the CT380 and CW9, respectively, because we were not experienced shooters and I was afraid we would be more prone to limp wristing their smaller counterparts.

[b4uqzme]

I think all brands are walking a tightrope with those tiny .380 pistols. Of the two you mention it's logical that the CT380 would be easier to shoot reliably due to the larger grip size. I chose a Micro Desert Eagle for that role. It's just a tad heavier at 14oz but has been 100 percent reliable...but a handful to shoot since it's so darn small.

I really like the grip size of the CM45 vs. the CW45. But if I had to do it over, I'd pick a CW and use flush 1911 mags. I'd probably use Kahr or Lakeline followers like Greg does. With 1911 mags the grip is about the same and it's better looking IMHO. And you get one more round. You might want to consider that.

I'm still partial to a K40 above them all. I'm one of those few who shoot .40 well. If I want smaller and lighter, I choose a PM9. Since I got the PM9 I rarely carry the MDE380.

[greg_r]

I own both the CT380 and the CW45.

The CT380 is absolutely my favorite 380, and while I can not compare it to the CW380, the CT has a slide that my wife can not rack. It is not hard to take down at all. The CT380 is a very reliable pistol. The upside to being hard to rack is the soft recoil. The only malfunctions I have had is with some light plinking loads. These loads will just cycle my PT738, Bersa Thunder, and HI Point, but they fail to eject in the CT380. Not strong enough to reliably cycle.

The CW45 is my absolute favorite. I was prepared for some wicked recoil at my first range session, but was pleasantly surprised with such a soft shooting 45! I have some 230 grain hollow points that don't like to hand eject, they normally just fall through the mag well though. My 230 grain cast truncated cone hand loads don't have that problem. Never been beaded in the noggin by a fired case though.

[Papersniper]

There should be any noticeable dimensional differences between those too. Both are near identical except for some minor exterior cosmetics and the barrel which don't make a bit of difference to me.

I'd go for the CW45 myself. I have a PM45 and I like it very much, carried it for years. Still wouldn't mind a CW although I really don't have a need for one. The issues you mention are mostly old news and easily fixed now that we've pretty much sorted them all out.
Cases hitting the head isn't only with the CW45. My PM45 does it too if I get sloppy with grip.

If it were me, I'd skip the 380, keep the CM9 and get a CW45. Cover the bases as it were.

Course the 45 might sour you on the 9mm after you get comfy with it.

I'm the OP:
No way I'd sell the CM9! I'm just adding to the collection. I like the idea of getting another 45, but then I also like the idea of getting another 380. The CT380 seems like a terrific 380 ACP pistol for someone with just one gun. However, it's actually a bit larger than my CM9 or the other 380 I own, the Glock 42. So does it make sense? That's why the CW380 is interested to me, at least it fills a perceived void in my collection - it's very small and truly a "pocket gun" IMHO.

I like 45s; always have. I'm down to 3 in the collection now. The only carry model I have is a Glock 30, which is an excellent gun. But I'm interested in getting another 45 for occasionally carry. That bit of cases wacking me in the head doesn't appeal to me! Is your PM45 an older model? I wonder if the new ones work any better. I doubt there would be any difference in the CM or CW 45s, do you think?

[Papersniper]

I think all brands are walking a tightrope with those tiny .380 pistols. Of the two you mention it's logical that the CT380 would be easier to shoot reliably due to the larger grip size. I chose a Micro Desert Eagle for that role. It's just a tad heavier at 14oz but has been 100 percent reliable...but a handful to shoot since it's so darn small.

I really like the grip size of the CM45 vs. the CW45. But if I had to do it over, I'd pick a CW and use flush 1911 mags. I'd probably use Kahr or Lakeline followers like Greg does. With 1911 mags the grip is about the same and it's better looking IMHO. And you get one more round. You might want to consider that.

I'm still partial to a K40 above them all. I'm one of those few who shoot .40 well. If I want smaller and lighter, I choose a PM9. Since I got the PM9 I rarely carry the MDE380.

Thanks for that info. The MDE is just too small for me I think, but thanks for the suggestion. It sure is tiny! I enjoy shooting the Glock 42, but I wonder how about the very light CW380 - it's about 3 oz less than the Glock, and has a bit smaller grip. My concern is how the CW380 operates.....I hear is had or has problems with lots of ammunition, FTF, FTE, etc.

I had not thought about your suggestion with the CW45. While it's lighter than my Glock 30, its grip is the same. Which 1911 magazines fit and would be flush? I think I read somewhere something about the Colt Officer model? And that the Kimber 7 round magazines worked without any modification? A flush fit, extra round magazine would be most welcome!

[Papersniper]

I own both the CT380 and the CW45.

The CT380 is absolutely my favorite 380, and while I can not compare it to the CW380, the CT has a slide that my wife can not rack. It is not hard to take down at all. The CT380 is a very reliable pistol. The upside to being hard to rack is the soft recoil. The only malfunctions I have had is with some light plinking loads. These loads will just cycle my PT738, Bersa Thunder, and HI Point, but they fail to eject in the CT380. Not strong enough to reliably cycle.

The CW45 is my absolute favorite. I was prepared for some wicked recoil at my first range session, but was pleasantly surprised with such a soft shooting 45! I have some 230 grain hollow points that don't like to hand eject, they normally just fall through the mag well though. My 230 grain cast truncated cone hand loads don't have that problem. Never been beaded in the noggin by a fired case though.

Thanks for that good information. Yeah, I figured my wife could not hand cycle most of the Kahr pistols, and especially the CT and CW 380. Even the CM9 is probably beyond her strength. We are bumping up against that "70 year old" time, and hand strength goes out the window early! We talked about it yesterday, and she is still happy with her car gun and occasionally carry gun, her Taurus 85. She is not a gun nut like me (!); I like to collect more than shoot I suppose! Anyway, I am more partial to the smaller CW380 I think as long as its reliability is the same as the CT380. I know the CT model would be much easier to shoot due to its size, but I already have that Glock 42 that's about the same. If I get another 380, I think something smaller or something with more capacity would make sense.

Glad to hear your experience with your CW45. Like you the thought of the recoil from a sub 20 oz 45acp pistol is intimidating. My Glock is about 6 oz heavier loaded, and while its recoil is not bad, I'd not want to shoot over 50 rounds per range session. It's terrific as a carry pistol except for its width. Your experience with hand ejecting live rounds sounds like others I have heard. I would have no problem doing it as you do with the magazine first removed; that's my first step when I'm making a pistol safe anyway, I'd just need to anticipate the round dropping down through the grip as oppose to sailing out of the breech. And I am very happy to hear your experience with NOT being hit in the head with spent cases! Seems like about half the pistols do that maybe. I wonder what the difference is?

[Bills1873]

My CM45 plunks me in the head occasionally. I suspect it has to do with ammo selection. Seems the cheaper stuff does it more, but it eats anything, so I forgive it!

[SaltyNC]

Thanks for that info. The MDE is just too small for me I think, but thanks for the suggestion. It sure is tiny! I enjoy shooting the Glock 42, but I wonder how about the very light CW380 - it's about 3 oz less than the Glock, and has a bit smaller grip. My concern is how the CW380 operates.....I hear is had or has problems with lots of ammunition, FTF, FTE, etc.

I've put 1000's of rounds through my CW380, and I think it is a great .380 pistol. It feels like a bigger pistol in my hand. It shoots like a bigger pistol, but it is tiny in the pocket. The stiff recoil springs really absorb the recoil and make it a pleasure to shoot. My only complaint was a little finger bite, but I smoothed up the edge of the trigger lip, and that took care of it. Most people don't experience that. I followed the prep thread here when I first bought mine a couple of years back, and I had very few issues during break-in. These do not like flat nose bullets, but XTP bullets such as Precision One, Hornady XTP, etc. work great for defensive loads, and for practice I use American Eagle and Precision One FMJ. I never have failures now with these loads. But, when I let others shoot the CW380, they have FTEs from time to time. I think it is entirely grip-related. The spring is very stiff. If the pistol isn't held firmly, the spring doesn't get compressed, because the energy is lost in the pistol rotating backwards in the hand of the shooter using a limp wrist. I added Talon grips to my CW380, and I think they help with the grip. If you shoot the CM9 well, I think it will be a no-brainer on the CW380 -- you will shoot it well. I played around with the new ARX ammo this past weekend, and it has very little recoil and fed 100%, but my CW380 is well broken-in, and I don't know if it will feed reliably with a new spring. The ARX is the polymer, copper powder bullets that use less powder but produce a faster bullet. The jury is still out on how well they do in actual flesh, but gel tests look good. If the ARX proves to be a good bullet design for wound channel, it will make the .380 shoot more like a 25.

Salty

[Papersniper]

My CM45 plunks me in the head occasionally. I suspect it has to do with ammo selection. Seems the cheaper stuff does it more, but it eats anything, so I forgive it!

Thanks.

[Papersniper]

I've put 1000's of rounds through my CW380, and I think it is a great .380 pistol. It feels like a bigger pistol in my hand. It shoots like a bigger pistol, but it is tiny in the pocket. The stiff recoil springs really absorb the recoil and make it a pleasure to shoot. My only complaint was a little finger bite, but I smoothed up the edge of the trigger lip, and that took care of it. Most people don't experience that. I followed the prep thread here when I first bought mine a couple of years back, and I had very few issues during break-in. These do not like flat nose bullets, but XTP bullets such as Precision One, Hornady XTP, etc. work great for defensive loads, and for practice I use American Eagle and Precision One FMJ. I never have failures now with these loads. But, when I let others shoot the CW380, they have FTEs from time to time. I think it is entirely grip-related. The spring is very stiff. If the pistol isn't held firmly, the spring doesn't get compressed, because the energy is lost in the pistol rotating backwards in the hand of the shooter using a limp wrist. I added Talon grips to my CW380, and I think they help with the grip. If you shoot the CM9 well, I think it will be a no-brainer on the CW380 -- you will shoot it well. I played around with the new ARX ammo this past weekend, and it has very little recoil and fed 100%, but my CW380 is well broken-in, and I don't know if it will feed reliably with a new spring. The ARX is the polymer, copper powder bullets that use less powder but produce a faster bullet. The jury is still out on how well they do in actual flesh, but gel tests look good. If the ARX proves to be a good bullet design for wound channel, it will make the .380 shoot more like a 25.

Salty

Thanks for that feedback on your CW380, that's the sort of thing I was hoping to get from this thread. I think the little CW380 would be a nice addition to the gun safe and have for those rare times pocket carry is appropriate.

I think you are correct about the FTE's probably relating to "limp wristing". I don't seem to have had that problem in the past, so I doubt I would with the 380 either.

Interesting on the ARX ammo; I've not heard of it until now.

[gb6491]

........On the bigger side of things, my gun safe is wanting another 45 ACP pistol. I have only a Glock 30 right now that's carry size although it weighs more than the CW/CM45s. I'd like to add another smaller 45 ACP to the safe. The CW45 appeals to me more than the CM45. Again, I am a bit concerned about the reliably and comfort shooting of the CW45.....I hear about fired cases hitting the shooter in the head, bullets coming loose in a magazine carrier, and the inability of being able to hand eject a live round in the chamber. True? Old information on those models? Or a significant problem? I'd like to hear experiences from the forum members....

I had some problems with my CW45 early on, but it's been reliable since then (don't think I've had a stoppage in the last 5 years).
If you do have an issue, we've tried to compile a list of those we've seen and the solutions:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?1612-CW45-(and-other-poly-Kahr-pistols)-issues-and-fixes

I've never been hit in the head with casings, but when the gun was newer, sometimes the casing from last round in the magazine would hit the brim of my hat:

These days the ejection pattern is more like that in this clip:


Bullets coming lose in a magazine carrier was more an issue with the 9mm magazines. I don't believe it's ever been an issue with 45ACP, I've not experienced with my CW45.

I've always been able to eject unfired rounds from my CW45:

There have been some instances where folks have reported that they couldn't eject live rounds, but the fix is simple. Kahr will do it or it's in the DIY realm.
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?21960-CW45-Barrel-Hood-Issues&p=279465#post279465

.....I had not thought about your suggestion with the CW45. While it's lighter than my Glock 30, its grip is the same. Which 1911 magazines fit and would be flush? I think I read somewhere something about the Colt Officer model? And that the Kimber 7 round magazines worked without any modification? A flush fit, extra round magazine would be most welcome!

Info on "flush fit" magazines:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?3317-CW45-P45-Flush-fit-magazine-UPDATED




My CW45 is my favorite Kahr pistol and one of my favorite pistols in .45ACP


Regards,
Greg

[SaltyNC]

Also, for issues with hand cycling the slide, has your wife tried grasping the slide with her weak hand while holding the pistol close to her chest and keeping the muzzle horizontal and pointed forward, and not moving her weak hand, but instead holding her weak hand steady and keeping her weak arm held close to the chest and pushing the pistol straight out with her strong arm? I don't use that technique, but I remember reading that somewhere recently. Maybe someone here posted that technique. I thought it was a good suggestion.

Salty

[Papersniper]

I had some problems with my CW45 early on, but it's been reliable since then .......

Regards,
Greg

WOW!! Thanks for all that information. I appreciate the time it took you to get all that together for me. Gives me lots to research in the coming days.