.40 S&W dead - yes or no

[kenemoore]

Remember trooper Mark Coates, .357 vs .22 it's all about shot placement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fra...UdZFiUEcaSopEy

[boscobarbell]

I realize that there is never a guarantee, but I believe that the larger the caliber, the larger the hole, increases your odds of immediate stoppage.

No argument here. But I think the difference in real world results is astonishingly tiny if we are talking about anything but one-shot stops.

If you can't hit center mass with .40 cal., I wouldn't be so sure that they could do it with 9mm either.

Thats not quite the argument. The testing they did was multiple hits on the target in rapid succession (which is included in the ICE qualification test, particularly in the close-distance portion (up to 7-yards)). Shooters consistently performed better with the 9 than they did with the 40, which shouldn't be a big surprise. And, given how close these rounds perform ballistically, the argument for going to the 9mm got a lot stronger.

I think it's important to remember that federal law enforcement has changed in recent years. The typical academy class used to be primarily ex-military and ex-local law enforcement. While that is still a big part of the recruitment pool, FLE is now hiring computer experts, language experts, accountants, attorneys, etc etc. Some of those people will learn to shoot at the academy, and then only burn powder 4 times per year when they have to break leather to qualify and go home.

[Barth]

Carry what you shoot the best and am confident with.
That may come down to a gut check.
Handguns are underpowered by nature.
We would all carry a rifle or shotgun, but it's not practical to do so.
So it's a handgun.
Some say a handgun is only good to fight your way to your shotgun/rifle.
At any rate, it makes sense to carry the most powerful,
highest capacity, gun you are proficient with and are willing to carry.
Reloads and a BUG come to mind as well (along with edged weapons).
Fortune favors the prepared

[Barth]

Protect me like the President of the United States: 357 Sig

No argument here. But I think the difference in real world results is astonishingly tiny if we are talking about anything but one-shot stops.



Thats not quite the argument. The testing they did was multiple hits on the target in rapid succession (which is included in the ICE qualification test, particularly in the close-distance portion (up to 7-yards)). Shooters consistently performed better with the 9 than they did with the 40, which shouldn't be a big surprise. And, given how close these rounds perform ballistically, the argument for going to the 9mm got a lot stronger.

I think it's important to remember that federal law enforcement has changed in recent years. The typical academy class used to be primarily ex-military and ex-local law enforcement. While that is still a big part of the recruitment pool, FLE is now hiring computer experts, language experts, accountants, attorneys, etc etc. Some of those people will learn to shoot at the academy, and then only burn powder 4 times per year when they have to break leather to qualify and go home.

My understanding that in the past the FBI had potential agents attempt to qualify with 40 S&W.
If they failed then they were given a 9mm to qualify with.
These days FBI has switched to 9mm wholesale.

Full Disclosure:
US Secret Service continues to protect the President of the United States with 357 Sig
I've read that those boys can shoot...

[ltxi]

Hardly dead, the .40, but declining in popularity for reasons mentioned....more effective 9mm ammunition and the 9 is easier to shoot for most folk, including me. Plus range ammo is much more expensive than 9mm ball.

I never much took to the .40 in compacts. I do not shoot my G27 well at all. G23, on the other hand, I'm good with but still prefer my 9mm or .45ACP guns in that size range. The last handgun I purchased, however, I bought because it shoots .40....a 10mm/.40 Ruger Blackhawk.

[boscobarbell]

Carry what you shoot the best and am confident with.
That may come down to a gut check.
Handguns are underpowered by nature.
We would all carry a rifle or shotgun, but it's not practical to do so.
So it's a handgun.
Some say a handgun is only good to fight your way to your shotgun/rifle.
At any rate, it makes sense to carry the most powerful,
highest capacity, gun you are proficient with and are willing to carry.
Reloads and a BUG come to mind as well (along with edged weapons).
Fortune favors the prepared

Well said.

[boscobarbell]

Full Disclosure:
US Secret Service continues to protect the President of the United States with 357 Sig
I've read that those boys can shoot...

Another previous agency of mine, Diplomatic Security, has carried 9mm for almost 25 years. They recently switched to a higher grain round, but they've stuck with 9mm.

I mention this because DSS often works hand-in-hand with the Secret Service, runs their own protective security operations for foreign dignitaries, the Secretary of State, and U.S. Ambassadors serving in high-threat areas around the world.

My academy class was filled with ex-Special Ops members, and our firearms training was long, grueling, and demanding...our Special Agent curriculum added advanced firearms training after the basic academy requirements, and if you didn't pass you didn't get your badge. And once you get your badge, you are expected to operate in hostile areas around the world, often without any local support or hope of backup if things turned bad.

In short, DSS is about as high-risk, cutting edge tactical an agency as you'll find in federal law enforcement. If the 9mm works for them, I'm fairly confident it'll handle the needs of an EDC civilian just fine.

p.s. My understanding is that the Navy Seals (another group with whom DSS works closely abroad) primarily use 9mm platforms now. Are we seeing a pattern here?

[Barth]

Talk to Seal Team 6

Another previous agency of mine, Diplomatic Security, has carried 9mm for almost 25 years. They recently switched to a higher grain round, but they've stuck with 9mm.

I mention this because DSS often works hand-in-hand with the Secret Service, runs their own protective security operations for foreign dignitaries, the Secretary of State, and U.S. Ambassadors serving in high-threat areas around the world.

My academy class was filled with ex-Special Ops members, and our firearms training was long, grueling, and demanding...our Special Agent curriculum added advanced firearms training after the basic academy requirements, and if you didn't pass you didn't get your badge. And once you get your badge, you are expected to operate in hostile areas around the world, often without any local support or hope of backup if things turned bad.

In short, DSS is about as high-risk, cutting edge tactical an agency as you'll find in federal law enforcement. If the 9mm works for them, I'm fairly confident it'll handle the needs of an EDC civilian just fine.

p.s. My understanding is that the Navy Seals (another group with whom DSS works closely abroad) primarily uses 9mm platforms now. Are we seeing a pattern here?

I've had training with ex Seal Team 6 members.
I'm not seeing the pattern.
Guys that can shoot, generally like something bigger than 9mm.
Especially if it has to be FMJ.
FMJ = 45 ACP.
But that's just me...
Actually not just me 40/45 acp for FMJ (talk to Seal Team 6)

[gale155]

Here's an interesting and informative article by a trauma surgeon on 9mm vs .40 cal:

http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...0-caliber.aspx

[markman]

Great article. I like many others started shooting many years ago. I also was at one time into the bigger is better camp. Now all I own in self defense pistols is 9mm and 380. I can get better shot placement and at a much quicker time. But like was said earlier, use what your comfortable with, that choice is yours. With all the new technology today, it makes the caliber choice not as critical as it did 20, 30, 40 years ago. The key is to hit the target in the proper spot. YMMV

Here's an interesting and informative article by a trauma surgeon on 9mm vs .40 cal:

http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...0-caliber.aspx

[berettabone]

Here's an interesting and informative article by a trauma surgeon on 9mm vs .40 cal:

http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...0-caliber.aspx

Looks like one shot to the shoulder and 2 more that went in at an angle. No center mass here. I'm sure you would have had the same result with 9mm. These articles are not the norm.

[berettabone]

I'm actually thinking about starting to carry a Redhawk in .44 special.

[boscobarbell]

I've had training with ex Seal Team 6 members.
I'm not seeing the pattern.
Guys that can shoot, generally like something bigger than 9mm.
Especially if it has to be FMJ.
FMJ = 45 ACP.
But that's just me...
Actually not just me 40/45 acp for FMJ (talk to Seal Team 6)

My understanding is that the current issue sidearm for Navy Seals is 9mm...just like the FBI, just like DSS, and just like ICE. That is the pattern to which I was referring.

[gale155]

My only experience with .40 cal is the Glock G22, and I've been shooting and qualifying with them since they hit our shores long ago...many, many thousands of rounds. A Gen3 G22 happens to be my nightstand and primary home-defense gun, and I have nothing bad to say about them; however, .40 cal is "snappy" to say the least, even in the big old G22.

The civilian market has been gravitating to smaller and lighter guns for quite some time, and I'm not so sure that .40 cal and small, light pistols are a good mix. As someone observed, take a look at how many used 40's are in the display cases at LGS. With law enforcement (at all levels) increasingly going back to 9mm, I think we will eventually see two things...decreased production of pistols in 40, and a decrease in the production of ammo in that caliber. With a decrease in demand for .40 ammunition, and the subsequent decrease in production, the cost is certain to increase, IMO.

[Barth]

9mm is GTG

My only experience with .40 cal is the Glock G22, and I've been shooting and qualifying with them since they hit our shores long ago...many, many thousands of rounds. A Gen3 G22 happens to be my nightstand and primary home-defense gun, and I have nothing bad to say about them; however, .40 cal is "snappy" to say the least, even in the big old G22.

The civilian market has been gravitating to smaller and lighter guns for quite some time, and I'm not so sure that .40 cal and small, light pistols are a good mix. As someone observed, take a look at how many used 40's are in the display cases at LGS. With law enforcement (at all levels) increasingly going back to 9mm, I think we will eventually see two things...decreased production of pistols in 40, and a decrease in the production of ammo in that caliber. With a decrease in demand for .40 ammunition, and the subsequent decrease in production, the cost is certain to increase, IMO.

IMHO for light concealed carry pocket guns? 9mm rules the day.
For me there's no doubt about that.
And the best High Tech Short Barrel ammo performs great (HST 9mm Micro).
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...tic-tests/#9mm