Top Shot

[Chief Joseph]

Just wondering if anyone watches that show. I really like it. When I first got my conceal carry permit I joined a fire arm forum based in my state and didn't last long. Although it sold itself as a CITIZEN carry forum, it was full of so-called "experts" and law enforcement types, one in particular who stalked the forum commenting on every post, "correcting" the ignorant members with his "expertise". I guess he owned a training facility and had this "adjudicator" that if you didn't pay him and go through it you were "unqualified" to carry. I didn't stay long with close minded know it alls like that jerk. The right to self defense is every ones right, not just the "highly trained". So on the last Top Shot, the 20 year military expert was beaten by the GOLFER who didn't even buy a gun until LAST YEAR.
As I tried to tell the "experts" at that forum, all the training in world would not help those who aren't naturally capable and those naturally capable could do the job with little training.
My attempts to show that regular joes nationwide have used their firearm to defend themselves with out their "expert" training was met with insults from those losers. And now Top Shot put it out there for ALL to see.

[recoilguy]

The guy who lost was way better with a weapon then the guy who won......Yeah golf boy is an average Schmuck (everyone likes a schmuck)who proved the "on any given sunday" theroy.

If my life were to be trusted to the guy who lost, who was trained and who had a bad minute or the goofy golfer who thinks he knows everything but is just and average schmick. The golfer is my second choice.

Now I agree many good shooters haven't had training. I also agree some with no training have defended and successfully protected themselves. I also think its silly and narrow in scope to suggest training has little merit or real world value.

Because the underdog won doesn't prove the underdog is as capable it only proves he can get lucky.

I'm not a know it all and Im not even right all the time. I'm just sayin.............

RCG

[Chief Joseph]

Yes, training is better, NOT the attitude. So those who are not physically able to "train" should be denied the right to carry? How about the Handicapped? I don't remember reading that part in the 2nd Amendment. "Any given Sunday"? The guy made it on the show, was the ONLY one to bullseye the first day and performed in ALL challenges so far. I guess that "any given Sunday" includes the other days of the week too. I think the "small mans" syndrome wins out. Guys who practice and train a lot, who have the MONEY, time to do so and the facilities to use just can't accept that people are able to do it without the smug "experts". I never said training had little merit in the real world, but unlike "those" guys, I've never said no one should carry unless they've had someone else idea of "training". On the other hand I've met many so called "experts" who have an elitist attitude that citizens should be disarmed just like the gun ban nuts. Only they want to KEEP theirs.

[Bawanna]

Chief you've hit on something that I've believed all along with the so called expert trainers wanting everyone to do the training their way, the only way and without them your nothing attitude.

That's why I'm glad in our state we don't have any training requirement for a CCW, or any shooting, just a background check and the fee. Training is a good thing without question but as a handicapped person myself it isn't always possible. I nearly went to Gunsite years ago (if only to meet Jeff Cooper in person). They said they would accomodate me and I could participate in any phase of the instruction I was capable of and watch what I couldn't. It never panned out and I regret it.
Training shouldn't be a prerequisite for concealed carry IMHO. Some basic handling instruction, safety and maintenance would be good. When you create a requirement to attend a firearms defensive carry course or whatever you want to call it, who determines how expert the instructor really is. I work closely with 3 police firearms instructors, at times they seem to be able to walk on water and are always on a higher plane than any mortal human. They teach good stuff without question and their mission in life is to save officers. Thats a good thing. It's the attitude I can do without.

For what it's worth I was routing for the military guy, I didn't like the golf instructors attitude and he did in fact win solely on blind hog luck.
I do enjoy the guys who encounter a game that is their so called forte only to find they choke and suck really bad. It just shows that overconfidence can ruin ya and even the best of the best can have a bad afternoon.

[Chief Joseph]

I was routing for the military guy too, and I also don't like Jay. But when he stated he only bought his first gun less than a year ago, and he's in there competing well, it struck something in me. I resent the arrogant gun experts more than the "golfers" attitude. Probably because I've experienced those jerks at guns stores and gun shows in person.

[Common Tater]

Training Snobs seem to exist all over the place; they are a lamentable part of our world. Who would have ever believed that there can be ten different ways to "slice the pie"?

As far as Top Shot goes, it's chief worth is in showing the non-shooting world that we're not a horde of boogey-men; that we're just normal, regular people. The scenarios portrayed in it are sometimes interesting.

CT

[Sliebl]

I was routing for the military guy too, and I also don't like Jay. But when he stated he only bought his first gun less than a year ago, and he's in there competing well, it struck something in me. I resent the arrogant gun experts more than the "golfers" attitude. Probably because I've experienced those jerks at guns stores and gun shows in person.

Count me in as another one that was routing for the military guy. He was way more proficient with the firearm than Jay, I'd venture to say due to his training. I would also say that he certainly didn't have an elitist attitude, as some training snobs (good way of putting it Tater) do.

Chief, I don't disagree with you that those that try to force the "their way or the highway" attitude on training can certainly be annoying. Fortunately, there are varying degrees of this attitude. There are some very smart individuals that exude skill, that are willing to help others without being over the top with their attitude. Hopefully, you don't classify those individuals in with the elitist snobs.

I also think that Jay exhibits some of the very same elitist attitude that you dislike. He wants to do it his way, every time. He doesn't want to listen to any constructive criticism from the show experts. He also doesn't have a good grasp of gun handling safety. One of the instructors had to take the pistol out of his hands because his finger was constantly on the trigger. He wanted to adjust the sights on the M1A to fit his sight picture, even though everyone else on the team was already sighted in.

By the way, for clarification, I am glad that I live in a state were training is not a prerequisite for attaining a LTCF (License to carry), or for exercising my right to defend myself. But, I do believe training is a good thing when it is practical from a physical, and monetary stand point. Upping your skills might pay off if you ever need to use your gun for self-defense.

[cgo99]

Same here, I was routing for the military guy. If Jay says that he bought is first gun a year ago all the more power to him but he does not strike me like a trustworthy guy, who knows if that's true or he just says it to make himself look better. I would not put it past him.
That been said it is true that there is natural talent component, in my case I have to train to overcome my natural lack of talent and yet my wife that has picked a gun twice in her life and she is scary good (really scary)

[jocko]

quote:Who would have ever believed that there can be ten different ways to "slice the pie


you mean common tater after 67 years of living here that there really isn't 10 different ways to slice the pie? oh my, now you have fokked my life up really good now. I will never eat a peace of pie again either. thank u so much--I THINK!

[jfrey]

Those folks on Top Shot are each supposed to be an expert in one form or another in some shooting game. I'm not bragging at all, but I'll shoot with them any day. They don't show me a lot if that is the best they can do with all the training they are supposed to have. Me, Jocko, Bawanna, Chief and Old Lincoln could go against that bunch and have a good chance to win.

Did anyone see them shooting the M1A in the last episode? I got a good laugh out of that. Sure, sights look different to each shooter, but not a descent 3" group from a one of them.

[jlottmc]

I gotta agree with everything said up til now. Training is a good thing, but it is not the be all end all. I know of some Marines that while being considered highly trained and all that, that I would not trust butter knife, let alone a mk-19. I tried to help the ones I could, and that were open to learning, but that was a small group.

[Bawanna]

Count me in, sign me up for the zip line. I'll probably be first voted out but I'll try not to let the team down long as I'm there.

[earle8888]

guess I fall into the elitist group! Their is no doubt that luck can play a BIG role in any activity/event, BUT, When things happen quickly and unexpectedly and , THUS, You react the training will prevail or control reactions. Thus training is CRITICAL in the moments of a life and death situation. Training is also mental attitude adjusting. We claim, (and I believe), we have the best trained military. This is proven when sh......t happens. Realized AFTER the event. I would not agree with Bawana this time.-- I believe everyone should have an/a education/class covering the use and liability/responsibility of-the-use-of-deadly-force.

[Bawanna]

I agree with you Earl in that everyone should have. I just don't agree with it being government (at any level) mandated.
I don't want the state to say ok you want a CCW permit you have to take this course by Colonel Wizzbang with a 8 month waiting period, pay 150 dollars and drink his kool aid.
I certainly don't disagree with training,training is a good thing but my choice.

I compare it to our hunter safety courses. Your required now to take this course before you can get a hunting license. I took it 40 years ago before it was required. They are hard to find and fill up fast. I took 2 of my kids and 2 other friends kids. Couple of them were a litte young like 10 but I wanted to be done with it.

Of course the instructor was the perfect example of what I hate about training. This guy was so big on himself I'm surprised we didn't have to genuflect in his presence. Typical I know everything, you know nothing and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know.
We all got through barely although I had words with him on multiple occasions during class and after.

A couple months after the class we were at a trap shooting event my son was invited too in an attempt to get him on a school sanctioned team. Didn't work cause he was in the wrong school district but the instuctor was there shooting. He stunk. My kid laughed.

Course being a hunter safety instructor and being good shots are'nt always prerequisites. Too his credit it is very difficult to become a hunter safety instructor. Probably why there are so few and hard to find courses.

[cgarcop]

Although it sold itself as a CITIZEN carry forum, it was full of so-called "experts" and law enforcement types.
I didn't stay long with close minded know it alls like that jerk. The right to self defense is every ones right. I was met with insults from those losers. And now Top Shot put it out there for ALL to see.

Yea, us law enforcement types are such elitist know it all losers and jerks. I dont know how my wife tolerated me all these years. Maybe I should be more like you and resort to cowardly name calling over the internet.