It is nice when guns....

[PaiN]

just work.
I've been plagued by minor and major problems with my weapons lately. I have very little tolerance for functional issues especially from firearms.
My Taurus PT709 went to crap twice.....and that was fixed by replacing it with the little rock of reliability Kahr K9.
That brings me to the Sig P220...the .22 kit is a good idea in theory but, was super finicky.....it only ran reliably when clean & wet and only then only on CCI HV ammo....what a pain. Then, I discovered that there was certain .45 ammo the 220 did not like and had to be dripping in oil to run right. High maintenance is not cool for a SHTF gun..
I sold the .22 conversion, deciding to get a dedicated .22, then a local trade opportunity came up on the .45....I decided to take it.
I ended up with a NIB Buckmark URX Camper and a custom Glock 30 (also as part of the .45 trade a Keltec P3AT, which I sold)
I put both of these pistols through the paces last night and not one functional issue was had. I can't tell you how happy I am to have firearms that work

here's the new babies...

[ripley16]

It is nice when guns.... just work.

Amen to that! That's one reason I'm a big HK fan. Costly guns? Yes, but they work. My Berettas fall into the same catagory. I don't think I've ever had one fail.

My Kahrs have not distinguished themselves with the same flawless record, I'm sad to say. Individually, some are tried and true dependable workhorses, but as a group.., not so.

Others that have been boringly dependable are;
My Seecamp. After more than twenty years, it still sends a "brick through a plate glass window" ever time I pull the trigger.
A Colt Woodsman has been the most reliable .22 I've ever owned, and I've owned it a long time, but my Buckmark is close behind.
My Sigs are like the Kahrs... some are perfect, some aren't.
Two surprises are my Daewoos. Whereas I haven't put a huge number of rounds through them, they exude quality. Even the little .22lr is as reliable as my Woodsman, and that is high praise.

I can't stand guns that don't work.

[Embalmer]

My AO 1911 has been totally reliable. 2k rounds, not a single failure feeding, ejecting, or firing.

[MW surveyor]

The only gun I've kept that has problems is the Walther P22. I know it is ammo related (cheap bulk 22 lr ammo) so I tolerate it. Other guns, GOOD BUY, life is too short to be messing around with a gun that is not reliable and cannot be fixed to be reliable.

[jlottmc]

Ripley, as a an armorer, I have have seen many many weapons go down. M-16's and Berettas were almost as problematic as some of my small machine guns. The Beretta was a thorn in my side then, and to this day I won't own one. The flip side is, I guarantee the Berettas had many more rounds through them than yours do. I liked having a pistol, but the Beretta is not my choice. That is also why I'm not a fan of the 5.56 and 9mm rounds, seen way too much failure when it counted. not trying to bag on you, but I've seen the insides of far too many Berettas to bet on them. There are a few departments that still issue them, but most are with Glock. Though that market share is dwindling some what. I personally feel that if I pick up a gun, and put many rounds through it with few and I do mean few issues that it will be ok. Those few issues had better be caused by me, directly or indirectly or the gun goes away. I am big enough to know that if man makes it, it will fail at some point, and that is ok as long as I can fix it or switch to a back up plan.

[ripley16]

...I have have seen many many weapons go down.

Surprised to hear your comments. The M9 has earned a very good reputation in military circles, due to it's reliability, robust nature and excellent accuracy. I'm curious... what is the nature of the problems you encountered with the Berettas you work on?

My personal experience has been very rewarding as well. I carried a Beretta from 1991 to 2005 with not a single failure. That's remarkable, IMHO. My other Berettas haven't seen as many rounds or as much abuse but in many thousands of rounds, I've never had a malfunction with any of them. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Sliebl]

The Beretta was a thorn in my side then, and to this day I won't own one.

I'm curious... what is the nature of the problems you encountered with the Berettas you work on?

Jlottmc,
I'm also curious as to what problems you were seeing? I have a Beretta 92FS Inox that has been 100% reliable, and I've got approximately 6000 rounds through it, best I can estimate, without so much as a FTF or FTE. It eats everything from cheap FMJ, Ultramax round nose lead re-manufactured ammo, and all of my various reloads problem free.

I do not carry this gun, but it has been so ultra-reliable, that I wouldn't hesitate to carry it, if it weren't so large and heavy. Other than installing a D-spring in it when I first got it, and cleaning it after every range trip, the gun is totally original.

[jlottmc]

The ones I used to work on and use were well used, we started having problems with locking blocks at about 25000-30000 rounds. Then we had some slides crack at about 45000 rounds. I've had some come through that had mushroomed firing pins, and pins that would not stay put, even when we cheated and used over-sized pins. I had many that would fail to feed or eject with no apparent reason, and the springs; those were fun too. Ours were so worn out that contact areas with springs and such would need to be replaced, but never were, so new springs would act a little too short. We also had a bunch of new magazines come in with some kind of krackle paint finish on them, nothing good came from those. If a Beretta is new, and proves itself within the first couple of hundred rounds, and it has good magazines, then yes they are ok. Even with our wore out 92f's the frame to slide tolerances were nice. Bottom line, they just don't trip my trigger. Same kind of things with an AR, seen too many things that just weren't right. One of these days I may give Beretta a chance again, but it won't be a 9mm, and probably not the 92 series. I am kinda partial to the 8000 series (the Cougar series), but then again, a rotating breech is kind of interesting. Do you guys have to run those things dripping wet?

[Sliebl]

The ones I used to work on and use were well used, we started having problems with locking blocks at about 25000-30000 rounds. Then we had some slides crack at about 45000 rounds.

Not being an armorer, or a gunsmith, I am curious to know which guns you believe would continue to be trouble-free at 30-45,000 rounds? Certainly you would expect to see just as many Glocks and Sigs in the shop at that point as you did Berettas? If not, I'd be curious to know what brand you have found to be the most reliable?

I'd go out on a limb and say that in civilian use, less than 1% of firearms will ever see that many rounds. The only exception to that would be the competition shooters, and those guns aren't generally stock so I wouldn't consider failures in that category to be "normal," if and when they do occur.

[jlottmc]

Jocko has a PM9 here with 30000+ through it. I have seen Ruger's with well into the hundreds of thousands of rounds. There are reports of Glock's going strong after 250k+, I've had a Springfield 1911 that had about 125k through it. Department of Homeland Security tested many weapons before adopting Sig's among those tests was a 50k round count with zero failures requirement. Two brands passed all the tests, Sig and H&K. Given that most will never see more than 10-15k through a firearm, Beretta is a decent gun if quite a bit overpriced, until 25k or so is reached, then problems will occur. A lot of it has to do with care and maintenance, and upkeep. Just one of those things that one sees and it colors their opinion. Bear in mind that Sig almost got the contract in 1985, and that the 1911's that were to be replaced while having been rebuilt about every 75k rounds, were very old and the parts to support them were as well. Beretta just has not had the same long term durability. So yes, high mileage, and lots of abuse will ruin any weapon, I just don't see Beretta's as the be all end all weapon that many think they are.

[jocko]

sliebl: and IMO competition shooters replace parts very frequently to. Military always stretches their testing beyond the norm IMO. Guns have parts, parts are to be replaced as needed. If taken good care of guns IMO should not go bad, they will wear, as each mfg-er brand will have its special wear areas that will require attention. If u abuse a gun, then one should not blame the gun. Because one gun goes 125K does not mean all of that brand will. Glocks over the years have went through many many internal changes,.I tend to revert back to the Indiana State Police buying 1200 G22 a few years back and having so many issues with them that Glock stepped in and replaced every one of them wth G17. Same thing with the Illinois State boys to.... They weren't perfect. Maybe most kahrs won't go 30,000 rounds either, probably 99.995% of kahr owners will never get to that mark either, so why say it is not a durable gun. If my PM9 breaks tomorrow, I will just fix it and move on. I keep an eye on my PM9 but no more than i did in the first 500 rounds either.

I am not disagreeing with jlottmc, IMO he is pushing the extremes of each gun that he is talking about 45,000 rounds is one hell of alot of round, no matter what. I would put abuse first over high mileage. treat it like sh-t and it will not let u down, IT WILL BE SH-T. I just don't condemn the gun over that part. High mileage, one better have a parts box for any gun. I swear if u looked at my PM9 you would not be with in 20,000 rounds of guessing the use of this gun, had I not posted it. It looks new, no wear and tear anywhere. I TAKE PERFECT CARE OF IT, but I have a parts box on hand also.

Hell u outta see my Harley garage, I have enough parts on site to build one if needed..

[Dietrich]

Function and reliability are no strangers to Browning and Glock products.Browning`s reputation as a premiere firearm has been forged over decades of satisfied customers.Glock is a relatively new kid on the block and I don`t think they will ever be held in the high esteem that Brownings enjoy but they are,none the less,fine handguns.I own products from both manufacturers and have never had a problem with any of them.

[jocko]

steel over polymer, each has their own die hard following..

[Bawanna]

I babysat 35 Beretta 92's, then we transitioned to 96's (40's) and just recently switched to Glock 21's. We were courted by Smith for the M&P, my choice, Glock of course and Springfield XD, the instructors choice.
The Glock rep was telling me what garbage Beretta's were and he had a mid west dept that would give me about a 100 for parts.
Other than 1 or 2 locking blocks and a spring now and then I had zero problems with a bunch of gun abusing cops Beretta's.

After we bought Glocks the Glock rep admitted that he had 3 Beretta's himself and had no issues.

I remember when most agencies around us issued Berettas including the state patrol. The academy was like wow we have issues with these, never with the Glock or anything else. Well when you have 97% Berettas and # % everything else what do the odds tell ya far as who's gonna have the most issues.

FWIW I think the Glock is a perfect police gun. Few moving parts, not much to fall out when they clean, mostly tupperware so it don't rust. Runs clean, dirty lubed dry, upside down and even under water. Call it mindless but it works.

[jocko]

probably right on the glock thing for police dept. From what I see in our little PD, they carry glocks from 9, to 40 to 45, and they don't take care of them, they don't hardly shoot them either. NO money in the dept and these guys make little and so , they don't practice what so ever, but the guns do work. Gaston Glock was certainly no dumb sh-t. He turned the fireamrs industry upside down with his G17 and after that it was just history.