Sig 250

[downtownv]

Funny. Just read this about the Army's quest for a new Sidearm. The Sig250 was discussed.

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-ne...n-way-can-now/

[ScottM]

Funny. Just read this about the Army's quest for a new Sidearm. The Sig250 was discussed.

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-ne...n-way-can-now/

Very interesting, thanks for the link!

I just got back from the range putting 100 rounds of Winchester white box through my new CM45, and 50 rounds through the P250sc45 (including a magazine of Hornandy CD). I'm enjoying both guns, so here are some more words of comparison.

Not a single failure with the P250, not two-handed, not one-handed, not with the white box nor the critical defense ammo. Very accurate gun - 4" centers at 50'. The trigger pull is loooong compared to the CM45 and takes some getting used to, though the break is flawless. I'm finding that my hand position is changing as I get to learn the gun. Note that I shot this one at the end of my range session, when my hands were getting tired and a little shakey, and I did feel that the long pull could be a disadvantage in a tired or super-stressed situation. On the other hand, having to pull that far might actually be quite good, to avoid an accidental discharge when you're under threat but not yet justified. The gun feels perfectly sized and balanced - really is nice to shoot if you can get over the long pull.

The CM45 failed to feed 8 times in its first 100 rounds, I think mainly due to tight factory tolerances and a grip not tight enough. I did managed to get through the last 5 magazines without failures by bolstering my grip. I didn't like getting impaled in the head 4 times with spent cartridges though. Nice trigger and accurate gun - I don't remember my group sizes because I was focusing on improving my grip, but I didn't see any goofy flyers. I thought the gun was comfortable and its cheese-grater grips weren't nearly as bad as I had predicted.

I'm looking forward to cleaning the guns and going to the range again after Christmas. Good times!

[O'Dell]

Funny. Just read this about the Army's quest for a new Sidearm. The Sig250 was discussed.

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-ne...n-way-can-now/

I find it interesting that they are considering a Detonics design since I own an early [1980] Detonics Combat Master.

[ScottM]

Size comparison between a Sig P250sc45, Kahr CM45 and a Ruger LCP:

[CJB]

The reason I got my first Kahr is that the Sig SubC .45auto was late getting to market. Very late in fact. Sig themselves gave mixed responses as to if/when it would ever be released at all. So, I went with Kahr, a PM45 and never looked back. Four Kahr pistols so far (one went missing, sadly).

Kahr is not pseudo-SA it is DA. And so is the Sig 250. The difference beting striker vs hammer, not the "action" of the trigger.

[CJB]

I find it interesting that they are considering a Detonics design since I own an early [1980] Detonics Combat Master.

Loved and carried my Detonics, sadly sold to help pay for my house!

One of these days, I'm going to build another, as close as I can, to the Detonics. Great little .45

[ScottM]

Kahr is not pseudo-SA it is DA. And so is the Sig 250. The difference beting striker vs hammer, not the "action" of the trigger.

No, the 250 is true DA but the Kahr is not. Break down your Kahr and examine the rear belly of the slide carefully and look at what the sear action does. It's neither SA nor DA, hence my term pseudo-SA because "pre-set striker" and "striker fired action (SFA) are sort of clunky terms. From Wikipedia:

Pre-set strikers and hammers apply only to semi-automatic handguns. Upon firing a cartridge or loading the chamber, the hammer or striker will rest in a partially cocked position. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker or hammer. While technically two actions, it differs from a double-action trigger in that the trigger is not capable of fully cocking the striker or hammer. It differs from single-action in that if the striker or hammer were to release, it would generally not be capable of igniting the primer. Examples of pre-set strikers are the Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, Springfield Armory XDS (only), Kahr Arms, and Ruger SR series pistols. This type of trigger mechanism is sometimes referred to as a Striker Fired Action or SFA. Examples of pre-set hammers are the Kel-Tec P-32 and Ruger LCP pistols.

[marcinstl]

ScottM, it takes a brave man to venture into this DA, SA, striker fired, etc. definition thing. I like to go back to revolvers and say a SA requires the hammer to be cocked by a thumb, where as a DA just needs a finger on the trigger to do both cocking and shooting. anything beyond those two types of actions are some sort of jumble. a DA pistol that doesn't have second strike capability like the DA revolver, is not a true DA pistol. the amount of pre-cock on a hammer or striker can produce various results-- I would call a Walther PPQ a single action, a Glock is just "glocky" and a Kahr is more like the DA revolver, possibly safer to carry than one of the light triggered guns. the SCCY is second strike capable, the Kel-Tec isn't. is second strike capability a deciding factor in gun selection? (I was watching a Hickok45 video where he is reviewing the Ruger SR9c and says, although he doesn't like a thumb safety on a carry gun, the very light trigger on the SR9c would force him to use the safety if he was carrying it. that must be one light trigger to get a "glock guy" to say that.)
so anyway, why would somebody want a Sig 250? smooth, but long trigger and 16 round capacity? might be a gun to have until Kahr builds a double stack 9mm (not holding my breath for that.)

[ScottM]

You're right, it all gets complicated - engineers can be disruptive to conventional terms if left on their own for too long :-). At least we're not discussing anything truly controversial like which engine oil is better... ;-)

[CJB]

Good lord....

Ya can't cock it first via other means, has a long stricker cocking trigger pull, so that ain't pseudo-single action to me.

I'll concede that the rest of the argument is rather murky, but the beast acts more DA than anything (unlike say, Glock). Whether the hammer and/or striker can be recocked is irrelevant in my way of thinking (and I'm open to studious correction on that).

[ScottM]

Yea, I think in the end what complicates things is the original definition of DA. The first action cocks the hammer and the second action releases its sear and drops the hammer against the firing pin. This is how a revolver works and the P250 too (the P250 being DAOnly). Grab either in any firing condition and you'll always be able to cock and fire with a trigger pull. Not true with a SA 1911 or a striker Kahr or Glock.

With Striker Fired Action guns like most (all?) of Kahr's, yes, there technically are two action - a small amount of final safety cocking and release of the sear, but it only works once the gun has been prepared, or half-cocked with a slide rack. Based on classical definitions, that makes Kahrs different from true DA because you can't fully cock and fire a striker gun from full mechanical rest.

[CJB]

Actuallly, unlike the Glock, the Kahr has very little pre-tension on its striker, and the trigger tensions it quite a bit before release - one thing that I like about the Kahr, and why I consider it intrinsically safer than the Glock for pocket carry.

[ScottM]

Actuallly, unlike the Glock, the Kahr has very little pre-tension on its striker, and the trigger tensions it quite a bit before release - one thing that I like about the Kahr, and why I consider it intrinsically safer than the Glock for pocket carry.

I completely agree. The Glocks, while fine pistols, just don't feel they require as much pull as I'd want when I'm about to plunge my life into a 2-year-or-more legal morass for defending myself with armed force.

[marcinstl]

well there ya are, kicked back in the fancy club, sipping a $100 martini, when the Glock falls out of the waistband and goes down a pant leg, you try to retrieve it but somehow get a finger on the "Safe action trigger" and BOOM! hehehehehe, had to go to jail and don't play football no more, do ya? (that's totally unfair to Glock, the idiot had the gun stuffed in his pants, no holster and don't know how many drinks he had--- total operator error.)

[gb6491]

... the SCCY is second strike capable, the Kel-Tec isn't. is second strike capability a deciding factor in gun selection?...

Might I interject here young sir? While it's true that some Kel-Tec pistols require slide manipulation to reset the trigger, I believe that SCCY's CPX-1 (and CPX-2) most closely compare to Kel-Tec's P-11. The P-11 is "second strike" capable (if the HEAVY trigger pull hasn't worn your trigger finger out).
Regards,
Greg