Bolt rifles

[JohnR]

I'm a rifle slut. Pistols and shotguns are waaaayyy down in 2nd and 3rd place as far as my firearms interest is concerned. I've got a LOT of rifles. I hunt a lot. I shoot a lot. I have a rifle for dang near any conceivable application you can imagine, from multiple brands, including custom rifles, in every action type.

So, I think I'm pretty qualified to speak on the subject and can provide some good advice on this project.

I'll say upfront that I am NOT a fan of CZ rifles, except for a couple of their rimfires.

First, what is your intended use for this rifle, John? Big game hunting? Small game/varmint hunting? Plinking? Precision shooting/ target? Safe queen?
Second, what is your budget?
Third, do you appreciate nice looking wood and blued steel, or do you want a utilitarian rifle that will receive and take some abuse and wet weather?
Fourth, do you currently reload or plan to in the near future?
Fifth, do you plan to buy a scope as well, or shoot iron sights?

Knowing the above will help narrow down the recommendations.

Good questions.
Intended use - precision shooting/target - over 100 yards if I can find a range that long, probably never more than 300.
Budget - I was almost prepared to spend the $650-700 on the CZ rifle in 7.62, that's about my limit.
Nice wood and blued steel - oh yes; that's what caught my eye about the CZ, it's solid and pretty. I don't like plastic rifles.
No reloading, originally I just wanted a rifle to get rid of a bunch of 7.62x39, in an action I hadn't shot before, just to "pad my resume" if you will.
Scope, yes. I have a Bushnell Trophy 4-12x40 that I just mounted on my 10/22. It's a little too much scope for that gun, but it's what I have.

[Streetkahr]

Here we go again, I was just looking at those this morning after I saw this thread.

That 7.62x39 makes a ton of sense, cheap to shoot, meaningful caliber and GB, that's a great looking rifle.

I think maybe you just need to send me a list of all your toys and I'll just check em off as I duplicate them at my house.

You've already done the homework and research, I'd just be reinventing the wheel ya know.

I love that.

Really do want an AR rifle, but these mini-Mausers are hard to resist. Not sure what I will turn up with next.

Ferro Veritas, In Steel There Is Truth

[Bawanna]

I had an AR, like a fool parted with it. Real nice but not a love story for me.
I want to get another, had a Match Target Colt 20". Now I'd get a shorty compact, maybe even get an SBR stamp and make it real short. I'd probably stick with 223 for that.

I now have a serious hankering for a Mini Mauser in 7.62 x 39 just cause. That one GB has just sings. Beautiful wood, nice configuration, and I do like a bolt rifle. Course I like levers and autos and pumps too. I'm an equal opportunity liker I guess.

[b4uqzme]

I was working in the G&G room (guns and guitars) and took a picture: CZ 527 .223 carbine with Nikon 2-7x32 scope.

[Big Sexy]

Good questions.
Intended use - precision shooting/target - over 100 yards if I can find a range that long, probably never more than 300.
Budget - I was almost prepared to spend the $650-700 on the CZ rifle in 7.62, that's about my limit.
Nice wood and blued steel - oh yes; that's what caught my eye about the CZ, it's solid and pretty. I don't like plastic rifles.
No reloading, originally I just wanted a rifle to get rid of a bunch of 7.62x39, in an action I hadn't shot before, just to "pad my resume" if you will.
Scope, yes. I have a Bushnell Trophy 4-12x40 that I just mounted on my 10/22. It's a little too much scope for that gun, but it's what I have.

OK...
If you want to do some precision shooting and you don't reload, I would forget 7.62X39 and go with .308 for a variety of reasons. First, I wouldn't get 7.62X39 in a bolt action, any bolt action in the first place. Again, if you don't reload, you will be severely handicapped in terms of precision with that round. I understand the desire to use up a bunch of ammo you may already have, but nobody loads truly good ammo in that chambering, and you can buy lots of "accuracy" ammo in .308. There is plentiful ammo in .308 overall, it has a significant ballistic edge over 7.62X39, it has the edge in inherent accuracy, due to better brass, bullet selection, and load precision in factory ammo, and it's fairly inexpensive compared to most other centerfire ammo. Second, the 7.62X39 is a comparatively anemic cartridge by bolt action cartridge standards, essentially duplicating the .30-30. Its small case capacity doesn't make good use of a bolt action's accuracy and velocity potential due to the fact it's not optimized for the available mag box space of a typical bolt action magazine. It was designed for reliable operation and size efficiency within an autoloading battle rifle detachable mag while being small enough that combat troops could carry more ammo. If you did reload, the possibilities open up dramatically, but since you said you didn't, I believe .308 is your best choice, all things considered.

If you really like the CZ 527, it's certainly within your stated budget, but I'm not a fan of this rifle at all. Fit and finish is rather crude, I don't care for the trigger, the stock comb drops too low for scope use (for me at least), there is a lack of good scope mounts for that rifle, those that are available are too high IMO, and I don't care for the obtrusive detachable magazine, which I think is poorly integrated with the gun. On top of all that, the safety works backwards from all other safeties I'm aware of (pulling it back toward you is the "fire" position, forward is "safe"). This goes against my instincts, poses a problem for me in use from a muscle memory standpoint, and could potentially be a bit "less safe" as a result of being counter-intuitive. But, to each his own. No offense intended toward anyone who's a fan of this rifle; it just doesn't do it for me.

If you want a "'98 Mauser" style action (long claw extractor, twin lug, controlled round feeding):

With a $700 max budget in a wood/blued rifle, I would probably look for a used Kimber 84M Classic, or up the ante another $200 and buy a new one. It's available in .308. That rifle also has a Mauser style action, but with a much better trigger, much better stock ergonomics in my opinion, much better fit and finish on metal and wood, smoother bolt operation, better mount selection, and much better balance. It's action is nicely scaled to the cartridge family it was designed for, which helps it achieve its light weight and superb balance. It's just a more refined rifle. I have two of them, and mine shoot very well.

The Ruger M77 Hawkeye also has a Mauser style CRF action and is less expensive than the Kimber 84. It's not as refined as the Kimber 84 IMO and doesn't have as good a trigger, but it's a good rifle. I like the way Ruger slimmed down the stock compared to the previous M77 MKII. Those that I've shot have been pretty accurate. Ruger has had a spotty reputation for accuracy in the past, before they started making their own barrels. Now that they hammer forge their own barrels in-house, they seem to shoot better on average.

The Winchester Model 70 is a mixed bag for me. The newer "classic" action is a Mauser style action much like the Kimber 84, except not as slimmed down. The newer versions made by FN in Columbia, South Carolina are put together fairly well, with pretty nice fit and finish, but you may have a hard time staying within your budget unless you buy used. The "classic" actioned versions made by USRAC in New Haven, CT from the late 1980s - early 2000's had a lot of variation in quality from what I've seen. I've owned several, some good, some not so good. I was never a fan of the push feed models made between 1964 - 1980's at all, for a variety of reasons I won't go into detail here. If you decide on a Win 70, I recommend the new FN model. It's just a better made rifle, with better quality control and attention to details than the USRAC versions.

I like aspects of the Browning X Bolt, but it will be tough to find one that stays under your budget if you buy new. It doesn't have the Mauser style action, but it has some nice features and generally shoots well. It is a nicely balanced rifle. I don't particularly care for some of the stock styling lines, but that's a personal thing.

I also like the Remington 700 CDL. I haven't been too impressed with Remington in general since their acquisition by Cerberus, but the M700 is overall pretty foolproof and usually shoots well. Even if it doesn't shoot well, it's pretty easy to make 700's shoot, and there are several very good aftermarket triggers to replace the factory unit with, which is the first mod I'd make to the Rem 700 platform. But it too doesn't have the Mauser style action you said you wanted.

IMO, forget Zastava rifles. They are pretty crudely made. The only reason Remington used them as the supplier for some of their rifles is because they're inexpensive. I can't think of a single redeeming quality for Zastava anything except they don't cost much.

None of the above rifles are truly the best choice for a "precision target" rifle if you're really serious about precision. But, in order to get that, you will need to increase your budget considerably, start reloading, and get a much nicer scope than your Bushnell Trophy.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ Great advice I'm sure but I still think you'd have a lot of fun shooting up that extra ammo in a CZ carbine. There are many out there who really like that cartridge in that gun so you shouldn't have too much difficulty selling it once you are done. You might even like shooting the open sights given your range constraints. Best of luck John.

[JohnR]

Big Sexy, that was excellent; like taking a college level course in rifle-ology. Or like reading a Stephen Hunter novel, especially the parts about the Winchester Model 70. The Kimber looks good. I've considered the Ruger M77, which can probably be found used for a fair price. I'm not stuck on Mauser action, just that the ones I looked at just happened to have derivatives of it.

[JohnR]

Do you think a CMP "Special" grade M1 Garand would work for that mission? Adding a scope is awkward, but the iron sights are good.

[Bawanna]

Everyone should have a Garand. Wouldn't that require a large increase in funding?

Also they are 30-06 so more of the good things the 308 provides but also more expensive to shoot a little bit anyhow.

Personally I've never understood why everyone favors the 308 where the 06 offers so much more versatility, range of bullet weights and so on. Many prefer the short action of the 308 but I still favor the 06 myself.

[JohnR]

I already have the Garand, bartered for services rendered - I did consulting work for someone on a CMP range project. He asked how much fee I would charge, I asked, "Can I get a Garand?" And so I did. So ammo is the only expense.

[Bawanna]

You one lucky dude! Also Garand not a bolt rifle, I just remembered that so guess it don't count.

[JohnR]

You one lucky dude! Also Garand not a bolt rifle, I just remembered that so guess it don't count.

Not a bolt rifle, but the bolt requirement is just a "nice to have" thing. I'd like to be able to shoot accurately to long distances, and the typical answer is "get a bolt action rifle," but that's not the only answer. I know my MP15 can shoot accurately to a couple hundred yards too. I'm just all over the map here, I guess I just want to shoot one of every type of gun there is.

[Bawanna]

There ya go, that's a goal shared by many here.

[Streetkahr]

Bolt rifles

If you have a bolt action .308 or 30-06, you can order a chamber adapter for $25.00 from http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm and convert an existing rifle to shoot the 7.62x39 round. I've been tempted to do this with a Spanish Mauser converted to .308, that I don't trust to stand up to modern commercial .308 rounds. But I have other things for the Russian ammo, so I don't have real need for another 7.62x39. If I feel the need to put the Spanish Mauser to use, I'll just handload some light loads for it. Some folks on other forums say that loading it to .300 Savage specs works well. It's pretty rough looking rifle, and would be a good knock around rifle for the 4x4 r a pickup. It was one of those bargain bin type of rifles, the wood was kind of crappy, but the action was nice and tight and the trigger was pretty good. I figured I could practice bubba-izing on it, and see how it turned out.

Didn't know about this. That might be an interesting conversion for a surplus Yugo Mauser.

Ferro Veritas, In Steel There Is Truth

[Big Sexy]

Personally I've never understood why everyone favors the 308 where the 06 offers so much more versatility, range of bullet weights and so on. Many prefer the short action of the 308 but I still favor the 06 myself.

This is true, but only as a hunting rifle, and only if you're planning to shoot the heaviest (over 200 grains) .30 caliber bullets. The OP said he didn't plan to reload and he wanted to do some precision shooting. That being the case, there's a bunch of factory "match grade" ammo available in .308 and not in .30-06. All things being equal, the .308 is also slightly more accurate by virtue of its case volume being perfect for the medium burn rate powders it's optimized for and that combined with its shorter powder column results in more consistent burn rate and therefore, lower extreme velocity spread and standard deviation. All of those things contribute to its inherent accuracy. Combine those virtues with the fact that you can get lots of inexpensive military brass for .308 if you do decide to reload because it's the same round as 7.62X51 NATO AND Lapua brass is available for .308 and not -06, which is also a big plus for precision if you reload because Lapua is the best, most consistent brass there is.