What's an Infidel? never to old to recirculate....

[downtownv]

What's an infidel?
This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well-known leader in prison ministry

The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in the United States, especially in the minority races!! Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who each explained their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic had to say. The Muslim gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.

When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Muslim and asked: 'Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?'

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, 'Non-believers!'

I responded, 'So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can have a place in heaven. Is that correct?'

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.'

He sheepishly replied, 'Yes.'

I then stated, 'Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine The Pope commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr.Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee them a place in heaven!' The Muslim was speechless!

I continued, 'I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a question: Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in order for you to go to heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and He wants you to be there with me?'

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head.

Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with my way of dealing with the Islamic Imam, and exposing the truth about the Muslims' beliefs.

In less than twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the Country to elect the Prime Minister!

I think everyone should be required to read this, but with the 'multi cultural', politically correct movement, there is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on! This is your chance to make a difference...

[MD_Vet]

Great Post!

[wyntrout]

Most people... Westerners... believe that Islam is just another major religion. Muhammad's Islam teaches that there are three ways to deal with non-believers... convert, enslave, or kill! These tenets aren't exactly about coexistence... getting along with your fellow inhabitants of this planet.

Many Muslim countries are poor and the only education for children are really just centers for indoctrination of children with radical concepts of Islam. The impressionable underprivileged children are "brainwashed" with radical anti-Western dogma and trained to gain Paradise by giving their lives to Allah and killing the non-believers. When you are taught this way from birth to adulthood and know no better, you are easily recruited to become a martyr and gain passage to Paradise by giving your life to further the cause of radical Islam.

Middle class and upper middle class Americans try to have fewer children... to be able to afford to feed, clothe, house, and educate them. Unfortunately, the majority of immigrants and minorities feel no need to limit their progeny and indeed, seek to have as many children as possible... since the government confiscates enough from the productive classes to pay for this ever burgeoning and usually dependent class of potential Democratic voters for more of the same.

We are so screwed as a nation. It's just a matter of time before our nanny-state implodes as the non-producers enslave the producers and more of the latter stop producing and join the former!

Wynn

[knkali]

I am gonna throw my post out there for balance and perspective. I wont get into a pissing match with others over this. I get scared when I see people pointing to other religions with contempt. The people we fear are extremists. There are extremists that read the Bible and construe it in ways that can be quite violent and contemptuous also.

These are well worded articles taken from the net that speak to my position better than I could articulate. I have not studied the Koran or the Bible, Torah, Buddhism in such depth to make quotes but captured the flavor and feeling of each to form my general opinion in regards to the op's post. As a freedom loving American, I refuse to get caught up in this mind set that undermines what most of us on this board cherish:

............No. If we start killing non-Muslims then who do we preach the message of Islam and Quran to, dead people? Today Islam has 1.6 Billion followers, that's like 1 in 5 people on earth is a Muslim. Where did all these people come from? Only way a religion grows is by converts and you don't get converts if you start killing non-believers.

As long as a group is not fighting against the faith or killing because someone is Muslim or has not waged a war or broken a peace pact, there is nothing in the Quran saying to harm them.

There are certain anti-Islamic people out there who often claim that the Quran is a book of terror, that it orders the death and destruction of all non-believers, one of the most common verses they use to try and prove their argument is verse 4 of Surah Muhammad which is the 47th Surah in the Noble Quran. The verse reads:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. [047.004]

Obviously the part that Anti-Muslims use the most with this verse is when it says:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks;

The verse is referring to battle and war, that in a battle, when we meet the unbelieving army that we should aim for the neck. It is just like any other army giving combat instructions and strategies to its soldiers. Other similar verses are also talking about the battlefield or enemies of Islam who are planning and plotting to do harm.

So not only do the verses in the Quran talk about killing non-Muslims during the battlefield but there are also verses in the Quran forbidding war on those who do not wage war against you.

Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. [60.008]

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. [2.190]

As you can see from the above verses. Muslims are commanded to show kindness and to fight not others unless they fight you or plot to drive you out of your homes. It also says to not go waging wars and hostilities against others who are not bothering you. Compare all that to the western powers who are doing just the opposite by spreading mischief and lies of WMD and invading Muslim countries and driving Muslims out of their homes, killing them (over 1 millions Iraqis killed by US actions alone so far) and what not.

"Slay Them" - If They Attack You First

For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Quran 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).
It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.
"Fight the Pagans" - If They Break Treaties

A similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.

This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).
Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."
Conclusion

Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Quran. Nowhere in the Quran can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.

The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Quran 60:7-8):
"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."

[downtownv]

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace
John Lennon

Pray for Peace
Prepare for War

[Ikeo74]

So, Kinkali, with so much information about quotes from the Koran, are you Muslim? You seem to have great knowledge about the Koran and the meanings of it.

[knkali]

So, Kinkali, with so much information about quotes from the Koran, are you Muslim? You seem to have great knowledge about the Koran and the meanings of it.

No, I am not.

[downtownv]

No, I am not.

If he was an Muslum his avatar would be wearing a burka!

[muggsy]

What knkali is saying about the Muslim religion may well be true, but the Muslim religion has been corrupted by extremists. People of good faith do not fly planes full of people into buildings full of people. People of good faith don't sever the heads of innocents. So how do you tell the good Muslims from the bad Muslims? You kill them all and let Allah sort them out.

[deadeye]

Just a question. Why do the "good" Muslims never speak out or try to do anything about their extremest brethren. If my religion was being used as an excuse to kill other people I sure would. Condemn or Condone. Ever look into sharia law? Very loving and kind.

[b4uqzme]

I pray for tolerance, for our Constitution and for Freedom...so I find some comments troubling. I hope we keep some of them close to the vest as I fear they do little to promote our fight to retain our rights. How do you tell the good from the bad in any of us?

I preach our Constitution and our Bill of Rights

I prepare for immediate threats against my life and against the lives of my loved ones

I enjoy the "hobby" of gun collecting, the "sport" of shooting and the gun community in general. There is a lot of good in all of us. Let it shine. Thanks,

p.s. "Imagine" is a tribute to marxism (albeit one of my favorite songs). There's another verse:
"Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can,
nothing to kill or die for, a brotherhood of man..."
The song got me to study marxism --- and determine that it doesn't work.

[muggsy]

I pray for tolerance, for our Constitution and for Freedom...so I find some comments troubling. I hope we keep some of them close to the vest as I fear they do little to promote our fight to retain our rights. How do you tell the good from the bad in any of us?

I preach our Constitution and our Bill of Rights

I prepare for immediate threats against my life and against the lives of my loved ones

I enjoy the "hobby" of gun collecting, the "sport" of shooting and the gun community in general. There is a lot of good in all of us. Let it shine. Thanks,

p.s. "Imagine" is a tribute to marxism (albeit one of my favorite songs). There's another verse:
"Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can,
nothing to kill or die for, a brotherhood of man..."
The song got me to study marxism --- and determine that it doesn't work.

Marxist socialism failed in America in the first established settlement. When it was replaced by capitalism the settlement flourished. Under capitalism America flourished and became the number one world power. It's hard to argue with success.