NYPD shoot more civilians, charge the target with the shooting

[TheTman]

From NY Times: " An unarmed, emotionally disturbed man shot at by the police as he was lurching around traffic near Times Square in September has been charged with assault, on the theory that he was responsible for bullet wounds suffered by two bystanders, according to an indictment unsealed in State Supreme Court in Manhattan on Wednesday."

Hard to believe they are trying to pin their poor marksmanship on the guy they couldn't hit. I guess in a way he deserves it. But the thing was, is that he was finally captured after being Tased. I believe if they allow this defense, it will end up with more civilians being shot, since the cops will blame the perp for their lack of accuracy. I think it will also set a dangerous precedent for other cases where they can't hit what the person they are shooting at.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/ny...uare.html?_r=0

It appears to me that the citizens of NY would be better off if they disarmed the cops and let people defend themselves. How many innocent bystanders have NYPD wounded and killed the last couple of years. They need to start requiring more range time and better proficiency with their firearms before they arm these cops that can't shoot and send them out on the streets.

[berettabone]

From NY Times: " An unarmed, emotionally disturbed man shot at by the police as he was lurching around traffic near Times Square in September has been charged with assault, on the theory that he was responsible for bullet wounds suffered by two bystanders, according to an indictment unsealed in State Supreme Court in Manhattan on Wednesday."

Hard to believe they are trying to pin their poor marksmanship on the guy they couldn't hit. I guess in a way he deserves it. But the thing was, is that he was finally captured after being Tased. I believe if they allow this defense, it will end up with more civilians being shot, since the cops will blame the perp for their lack of accuracy. I think it will also set a dangerous precedent for other cases where they can't hit what the person they are shooting at.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/ny...uare.html?_r=0

It appears to me that the citizens of NY would be better off if they disarmed the cops and let people defend themselves. How many innocent bystanders have NYPD wounded and killed the last couple of years. They need to start requiring more range time and better proficiency with their firearms before they arm these cops that can't shoot and send them out on the streets.

You have to admit, in NY, there are probably a few who need to be shot

[TheTman]

Oh hell yes berettabone, I can think of several off the top of my head, Bloomberg, The Rev.s Not so Sharp-ton and Jesse, Shumer, Rangel, most of their congressmen, and NYC officials. I am NOT advocating violence against these people or anyone else, just agreeing that there are some in NY we could do without. Not to mention the gangs thugs, and those involved in organized Crime, and the crooked cops that they employ, much of the MSM, Most of the cast of The View (I don't know if they still have a conservative host or not), and a host of others.

[muggsy]

Tom, what exactly is your beef with the police. I've never seen you post one positive remark concerning the men in blue. My old man once told me that if you can't say anything good about someone then just shut the **** up. You ought to take that advice.

[Bawanna]

My momma used to say sticks and stones will break my bones but face shooting is forever. Or something like that.

[warbird1]

Makes as much sense as anything else they do in New York.

[garyb]

+1 on the need for better training and range time for LEO's. This information came to me directly from a master instructor (my buddy, personal gun trainer and a fellow black belt from back in the day). I've not only trained LEO's in hand to hand, but have experienced some of their gun handling ability on the range. Very poor. Please don't take this as me bad mouthing LEO's. I totally respect what they do out there...especially in that trash hole of a city they call NY...and I am a NY'er (but of the Upstate variety which is a different planet). Generally LEO's need far more concentrated gun handling and hand to hand training.


As an example, last week my wife got called out by the alarm company of her dialysis center. I went with her. The Police were at the center and the front door was open. During the lock up and alarm reset, I got to talking with the two LEO's. I noticed they were carrying M&P's and I asked what cal. "45" one cop responded. I asked how they liked the M&P. "It's ok. It's what we're issued". I asked if they got much range time in. One cop responded "once a year for me and I can do the job with it." and the other responded "about 3 times a year for me and I feel confident". To me this screamed....LACK OF TRAINING!


Anyway, in a very crowded trash city like NYC, LEO's need even more precision shooting skills to avoid hitting bystanders. Again, nothing against LEO's. It is simply a fact for many LEOs (not all).

[John222]

Most of the cops I know are hard working honest people doing a dangerous job. Sometime there are a few bad ones that get all the attention or a few that make poor decisions. All in all if you consider how many cops are on the streets in this country at any given time, these incidents are rare.

[garyb]

Most of the cops I know are hard working honest people doing a dangerous job. Sometime there are a few bad ones that get all the attention or a few that make poor decisions. All in all if you consider how many cops are on the streets in this country at any given time, these incidents are rare.

Absolutely! Totally agree. I have a good number of LEO friends that I socialize with. I have a nephew who is an LEO. Tough kid and hard working. I certainly mean no disrespect to LEO's in any way. They have a tough job. But that is not the point. Each of these LEO guys that I know would agree that more consistent gun handling skill training and hand to hand training is necessary for many LEOs. This is in no way intending any disrespect to LEOs. It is just a fact.

[muggsy]

Some of the best shots and some of the worst shots that I've know were police officers. Three of my friends were police officers, but now there are just two of them. I wouldn't be so hard on TheTman if occasionally he would say something good about our men in blue,. He only seems to highlight the bad and most often without hearing both sides of the story. The only thing that every cop that I know wants to do is to return home to his wife and kids at the end of his shift. Not all of them do. I have a tendency to side with the men who swore an oath to protect and serve their communities. None of us have to deal with what they have to deal with on a daily basis.

[TheTman]

Muggs, I've posted many positive things about police. I also don't hesitate to point out when they abuse their power. And I don't like how America is being transformed into a Police State. I also don't appreciate the ones that are on the take, or shakedown businesses for protection money. And those that lie under oath to protect themselves and their buddies, or to help make their case. And of course the Jury is going to believe whatever the cops say, and assume the defendant is lying, even when they are telling the truth. I don't like to see unarmed or innocent people shot by trigger happy cops, as has been happening far too frequently. Enough that a magazine published statistics that you were more likely to die at the hands of a cop, than being hurt by a terrorist. I also don't care for the attitude some have that "We ARE the law", rather than "We are here to ENFORCE the law". I find the ones with the We Are the Law attitude a bit scary. Like do whatever they say, no matter if it's illegal, or unconstitutional, or you may end up in handcuffs, or with an extra hole in you. I'm tired of seeing people stripped of their rights, like the man in Texas that got arrested for carrying his AR15 on his son's 12 mile Boyscout hike. It looked like he was out in the county, and was prepared to deal with any dangerous varmints they may have come across. Then the most dangerous thing to happen to him was the police harassing him. I may not have had all the facts, but I had just as many as did all the news sites that posted the story and video and complained about it.
Muggs, the young cops today seem a lot different than they did when we were young. Of course it was a whole nother country back then. Plus we didn't have the internet to spread all of their screw-ups to a national audience.
I don't have a beef with the majority of our police, they just want to do their job and go home to their family at night in one piece. MOST of them do a fine job. It's the ones that don't that I have a beef with. As another poster said when asking some cops about their weapons, the one cop says he does fine with ONE visit to a range per year, while the other said he goes maybe 3 times a year. For someone that may be required to use his weapon for defense or to take out a criminal, that is not nearly enough range time. They should be proficient enough to take a perp out with a head shot, while he is trying to use a hostage as a shield. Provided they are equipped with an accurate sidearm.
I may point out some of their abuses, but we always can count on you to pop in and tell everyone that I'm full of sh!t, and don't have all the facts or whatever, and that all cops wear halo's and should be worshipped. Makes a good balance. You keep doing your part, and I'll keep doing mine. I guess the reason I make my bad cop posts is to inform people that they had best be aware that there ARE cops out there that might be suited for a better line of work, and these are things they may want to keep in mind if stopped for a traffic violation, or have some other dealings with police.
How would you like to have been in Hurricane Katrina, and had the cops or national guard break into your home and seize all your weapons, If you back that nonsense, then I don't have anything else to say to you. Now if they had targeted homes of known bad guys, it would have been a different situation, but that video of them wrestling the little old lady to the ground, causing her injuries was totally uncalled for. Any of them should have been able to grab her wrist and take the pistol away from her, without tackling her and causing all the injuries she suffered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpHkR2KaTLw
How do you defend something like that? Of course the cops said she pointed the pistol at them, and they were forced to do what they did, but she never had the gun in a position she could fire a shot, she was holding the gun with her hand around the top and cylinder of the pistol, not by the grips where she could have fired a shot, IF the gun had been loaded.
It was also quite a show of force at the Boston Bombing, locking the town down, forcing business to close, throwing the 4th amendment out the window, barging into homes to search for the perp, all over one teenager, that a civilian finally found. I see things like this and wonder what it's going to be like in the future? It already feels too close to what Germany must have felt like in the late 30's, as they too were stripped of their guns and rights, and promised they would be safer for it.
And I don't even post half of the "Bad Cop" crap I see.

[cltyus1]

Re: NYPD shoot more civilians, charge the target with the shooting

Muggs, I've posted many positive things about police. I also don't hesitate to point out when they abuse their power. And I don't like how America is being transformed into a Police State. I also don't appreciate the ones that are on the take, or shakedown businesses for protection money. And those that lie under oath to protect themselves and their buddies, or to help make their case. And of course the Jury is going to believe whatever the cops say, and assume the defendant is lying, even when they are telling the truth. I don't like to see unarmed or innocent people shot by trigger happy cops, as has been happening far too frequently. Enough that a magazine published statistics that you were more likely to die at the hands of a cop, than being hurt by a terrorist. I also don't care for the attitude some have that "We ARE the law", rather than "We are here to ENFORCE the law". I find the ones with the We Are the Law attitude a bit scary. Like do whatever they say, no matter if it's illegal, or unconstitutional, or you may end up in handcuffs, or with an extra hole in you. I'm tired of seeing people stripped of their rights, like the man in Texas that got arrested for carrying his AR15 on his son's 12 mile Boyscout hike. It looked like he was out in the county, and was prepared to deal with any dangerous varmints they may have come across. Then the most dangerous thing to happen to him was the police harassing him. I may not have had all the facts, but I had just as many as did all the news sites that posted the story and video and complained about it.
Muggs, the young cops today seem a lot different than they did when we were young. Of course it was a whole nother country back then. Plus we didn't have the internet to spread all of their screw-ups to a national audience.
I don't have a beef with the majority of our police, they just want to do their job and go home to their family at night in one piece. MOST of them do a fine job. It's the ones that don't that I have a beef with. As another poster said when asking some cops about their weapons, the one cop says he does fine with ONE visit to a range per year, while the other said he goes maybe 3 times a year. For someone that may be required to use his weapon for defense or to take out a criminal, that is not nearly enough range time. They should be proficient enough to take a perp out with a head shot, while he is trying to use a hostage as a shield. Provided they are equipped with an accurate sidearm.
I may point out some of their abuses, but we always can count on you to pop in and tell everyone that I'm full of sh!t, and don't have all the facts or whatever, and that all cops wear halo's and should be worshipped. Makes a good balance. You keep doing your part, and I'll keep doing mine. I guess the reason I make my bad cop posts is to inform people that they had best be aware that there ARE cops out there that might be suited for a better line of work, and these are things they may want to keep in mind if stopped for a traffic violation, or have some other dealings with police.
How would you like to have been in Hurricane Katrina, and had the cops or national guard break into your home and seize all your weapons, If you back that nonsense, then I don't have anything else to say to you. Now if they had targeted homes of known bad guys, it would have been a different situation, but that video of them wrestling the little old lady to the ground, causing her injuries was totally uncalled for. Any of them should have been able to grab her wrist and take the pistol away from her, without tackling her and causing all the injuries she suffered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpHkR2KaTLw
How do you defend something like that? Of course the cops said she pointed the pistol at them, and they were forced to do what they did, but she never had the gun in a position she could fire a shot, she was holding the gun with her hand around the top and cylinder of the pistol, not by the grips where she could have fired a shot, IF the gun had been loaded.
It was also quite a show of force at the Boston Bombing, locking the town down, forcing business to close, throwing the 4th amendment out the window, barging into homes to search for the perp, all over one teenager, that a civilian finally found. I see things like this and wonder what it's going to be like in the future? It already feels too close to what Germany must have felt like in the late 30's, as they too were stripped of their guns and rights, and promised they would be safer for it.
And I don't even post half of the "Bad Cop" crap I see.

I must agree with most of this

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

[TheTman]

I would have kept that to myself cityus1. Now you are gonna have Muggsy on your ass too. Just kidding.
I don't know how serious he takes our back and forth, to me it's just two old farts with different opinions giving each other a ration of crap. I know he is serious about his respect for Police. Me I respect the uniform, but not always who is wearing it.


What do you think Muggs? You ready to strangle me yet?

[muggsy]

Tman, I take the back and forth between us very seriously. I don't see America as becoming a police state. I do see it leaning toward socialism. Some of the strongest supporters of our 2A rights are police officers. Thousands of them are members of the NRA. Your perception that America is becoming a police state borders on paranoia. You see a conspiracy behind every event. I go through my daily life with almost no contact with the police. I suggest you spend a few hours watching Cops on TV to see what the police come into contact with on a daily basis. I've never had a bad contact with a police officer. I'm sure that there are a few bad apples, but I'm equally sure that there are damn few of them and that they don't last long as police officers. Cities don't like lawsuits. I have no problem with you posting an incident once the offending police officers are found guilty. What I object to is you posting claims against the police that come from the liberal left that are one sided and have no basis in fact.

[downtownv]

Wow, like watching a Chinese Ping Pong Tournament. Fast pace smacking little balls around!
There are Facts and then there's facts.
NYPD and many other LEOs are NOT good shots and need more range time. Many LEO's have seem to have forgotten the "To Protect and Serve" motto.
Many Departments Have ParaMilitary/Police State mentalities.
But the majority are Good Guys, overshadowed by a few bad apples.

Not biased but it's a pressure cooker job and I have several on the Job, in the Family. Oh,They all love what they do and that, at the end of the day, is all that matters......
Now Back to the Tennis Match!