No-Knock raid ends in tragedy. Cop killer not indicted

[yqtszhj]

keeping the gov't in check is one of the main reasons the founders gave us the 2nd after all.

bingo!

[b4uqzme]

9/11 taught us a need to be prepared for military style threats. So gearing up and training is good. What is blurred is the line that determines how and when to deploy those tools.

[TheTman]

Thanks for the info LZ. I looked around to see if I could find some interview or something with the Grand Jury to see what their reasoning was and couldn't find anything.
I did come across a comment on PoliceOne.com where they had a comment thread going about McGee not getting indicted that I found a bit disturbing: "This was a good site until you started letting any idiot join. Like my brothers said we dont have to take this sh*t from civilians." That sure sounds like there is an US vs THEM mentality, or some type of superiority complex, going on with some of the officers. Of course that's a pretty jerkwad thing to do; to get on a LEO only site and start ragging on the cops there. Especially on a thread about an Officer killed in the line of duty. I kind of understand the sentiment, but I found it troubling. Reading the posts on that thread gave some pretty good insight on no-knock raids, and what different LEO's thought of them, and how they felt about using one for a grow operation and even what they thought about pot in general. And there were still a few posts left that were pretty insulting, although most of them must have been removed, as I didn't see some of the posts being referred too.
http://www.policeone.com/drug-interd...-Texas-deputy/

[Longitude Zero]

Frankly LEO's need and fortunately have several site we can go to and not be bothered/tainted by non-LEO's. Police One has a members only area on their site and you have to send a photo copy of your creds to be admitted and they even phone your home department for confirmation. This is done because proprietary information that non-officers have no business having is discussed. That is not meant to be condescending but there are simply some things civilians have no clue about and don't need one.

[LT Drebin]

9/11 taught us a need to be prepared for military style threats. So gearing up and training is good. What is blurred is the line that determines how and when to deploy those tools.

Well, let's take a step back for a second. If the NYPD had all the equipment and military style training it does today before 9/11, would it have made a material impact on the outcome? How would say having an armored vehicle have done anything to change that day? I just don't see it.

[JERRY]

No Knocks serve a purpose unfortunately they are IMHO overused. Having planned hundreds of raids both knock and no knock I have really not seen a statistical mandate to use no knocks to the extent they are used. I had a multi page raid plan review sheet that answered over 200+ question that was used to determine which type raid was used.


On a knock warrant the delay is minimal. Generally we gave no more than 10 seconds after announcing to make instant entry. We NEVER had any of our raid techniques questioned or beaten in court NEVER. On a knock and announce if we heard activity in the structure that indicated they were arming themselves we engaged in and instant/explosive/dynamic entry. Sounds such as the cocking of a weapon, slide action shotgun being racked, somebody yelling get the guns etc. We had a few end in gunplay and we always prevailed.

this is unfortunately true almost without exception.

Of the myriad things that are changing in our country, this whole "militarization" of our police forces is perhaps the one thing that scares me more than just about anything else. Once upon a time the cop on the neighborhood beat was a friendly part of the landscape of American life. Now it seems that they are often being taught to become military-like machines with no heart and soul applying ruthless tactics of attack first and ask questions later.

this comes about when criminal street gangs have auto weapons, members who use to be in the service and teach others military tactics, and in some case are funded/equiped indirectly by the federal government.

And there-in lies the problem. My CALEA certified PD rarely chats with the citizens. I think their over training causes a paranoia of the very people they are hired to protect and serve.
Very few LOES associate with non leo's socially. They live in an exclusive club.
I remember cops as as kid would jump in on a snowball fight with us and we respected them as well as admired them.
Too many of this new breed are like Bots, no emotion.
I discuss it with family members that are LEO's they see it as well.

downtownv, your whole post is good. police brass push for numbers hard. arrests, tickets, giggling door knobs, you name it, the push is on hard because the public wants more action from the police to reduce crime but doesn't support them, adding the financial cuts by the bean counters and their refusal to hire enough cops.... and the damned if you do damned if you don't that police face everyday, low pay, poor benefits, lousy hours, this aint the job it use to be. cops are taken advantage of by many, not taken care of by any.

[knkali]

As mentioned earlier, the thrust of this thread is the militarization of our police. Good or bad?
Unfortunately, civilians want this, then when they get it, they complain. We want our police to be there on the spot when needed, with instant, effective "justice" while maintaining a modicum of personal rights. Tough order to fill and unrealistic expectations set in a false reality. Granted, it is a different world today and the "Mayberrys" (sp)of our world are few and far between. However, if you want to demilitarize our police forces, we have to start accepting the simple fact that we have to police and govern ourselves firstly. We want others to raise and teach our kids, others to handle our interpersonal affairs, others to govern us, so until there is a paradigm shift in thinking, we will always sway to a system of authority at all costs. Does the right to carry help truncate this shift? I believe it can; however, if other aspects of society do not follow in the vein of self sufficiency, then we are kidding ourselves as to the amount of impact that the right to carry really has. Instead, it continue to be more regarded as a knee jerk reaction to the current state of affairs ---nothing more than a fleeting and dying symbol of the concept of self reliance.. I hope this makes sense.

[Longitude Zero]

knkali you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Civilians want instant law enforcement response to be tough and hard nosed ON EVERYBODY ELSE EXCEPT THEM.

[RevRay]

Knkwli, I don't disagree entirely with what you said, but I still think there needs to be some degree of discernment as to when to and how much force to use. It seems to me that now that the available level of force has increased, so have the occasions to use it ... it's sort of a "if you've got it, flaunt it" kind of attitude. As to whether it can be worked back ... I doubt it can ... which is why I'd like to see some discretion factored into the equation. Shoot, if our troops in Afganistan have to operate by rules of engagement, why shouldn't our troops here have them as well.

And one last thing ... when I served as an Infantry officer, I taught classes to my troops on what was proper and what was improper conduct with regard to our treatment of enemy combatants. And we talked about each soldier's responsibility to make sure that the order they were being given was a lawful one before following through on it ... and sometimes the nuances were quite delicate. I just wonder if our police forces are getting that same degree of training? Remember the case in point that was just settled in court that prompted this thread.

[JERRY]

RevRay, its called ethics training. the irony is that you cannot teach ethics; you either have them or you don't.

[LT Drebin]

No-knock raid kills 80 year old. Cop lies about details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZFlIK-zAO8#t=292

[TheTman]

I've had to step away from this thread for awhile. I ran into this story about Fullerton county beating a homeless mentally challenged man, Kellly Thomas until he was in a coma. He later died in the hospital. This site has video of the beating. Kelly was taken to the hostpital, where he later died of a "heart problem" The police were charged, but found not guilty. The FBI is looking into it further. That and several other similar stories really made me upset and I had to take a break. Alex Jones kind of goes over the top, but the site has the video, pictures and details of the account. This should not be happening in America. They could have cuffed him long before they did.
http://www.infowars.com/kelly-thomas...nse-to-murder/

He was just sitting on a bench, and a cop thought maybe he might have been involved in some burglaries, and was giving him orders which I guess he didn't follow exactly or quick enough for the cop.
Ii guess this is what can happen to you if you have problems understanding what police want you to do in Fullerton County. The film shows up to 6 cops beating Kelly and telling him to quit resisting, which I don't know how he would be capable of, more likely he was just trying to cover himself up from the blows landing on him.
Kelly's father was a policeman, and you can hear him yelling Daddy on some of the videos, of which there are several scattered across the internet.
Sorry for the graphic photo. I figured people would see infowars in the URL and not bother to look.

[TheTman]

The videos and pictures I came across had me angry with police in general for a couple days, and I don't want to be like that. I know most of them do a good job. I need to go back and watch some of the ones where the cops narrowly escape death, and get my head right. Unfortunately, many will only look at these Police abuse videos and form their opinions from them, and not bother to look at the ones where the Police come out on the short side.
While looking into these things, I saw a DOJ statistic that stated 400-500 innocent people are killed by Law Enforcement each year.

[Longitude Zero]

For every action of misbehavior there are millions of acts of helpfulness. Due to media sensationalism the bad acts are made to be more than they are and appear far more common than they are. that DOJ statistic you quoted has been discredited since it also included incidents of traffic collisions which completely destroys an credibility for the statistic.


As always for those that question/complain/carp about the police do everybody a favor and do not call 911 when you are in need of law enforcement assistance. Handle it on your own and then deal with the consequences of your choices.

[TheTman]

LZ, So some of those were killed in traffic accidents, Lets say half of them. That still leaves 200-250 innocents killed.

I agree, you never see video of Police helping change a flat tire or saving's a life, it's only the negative that usually gets any press.

Every job in the world, someone is going to criticize your company's work. No one was criticizing YOU, I'm sure you're a damn good cop. But in every job I ever worked in, there were people that should have been in a different line of work.

I'm sorry, but that beat down on Kelly Thomas seemed way overboard to me and most civilians that commented on the videos, or articles about him., It made me sick to my stomach when I watched the video. How are you supposed to comply to demands to "quit resisting" when you are busy trying to cover up from the blows raining down on you? It reminded me of a feeding frenzy from watching shark week. I realize these things are judgement calls, but 6 guys on one mentally challenged unarmed young man seems overboard. The community is not happy about the outcome of the trial of the officers that administered the beat down. The main one that started it all was even chased out of a café by angry patrons. But if you think it was the right call, I have no wish to argue the point. I'm just saying how I reacted to watching the video and the community is upset. I am not trying to antagonize you or anything, only giving my honest opinion.

There are several websites devoted to Police Abuse, maybe someone should start one on Police giving aid, and doing good things, and get some good publicity going. Do whatever you can to publicize the good things you do.

Right now people are scared by what they see as the "militarization" of the Police, And the tactics being used. Mostly in bigger cities, but spreading to smaller towns. Like you said, I too think the no-knock warrants are being used too often, and on low level crooks that don't really need a no-knock. And with the ones at the wrong address, or just going on a "hot tip" make people uneasy. Maybe someone has a beef with you and phones a tip in that you are running a meth lab or something. I live out in the country, and with propane being so high, (last time they gouged me at over $6.00 a gallon) I've been using electric space heaters to keep just my kitchen and bedroom comfortable and my electric bill is running much higher, I'm kind of worried that will cause a raid on my place thinking maybe I have a grow operation going using some kind of fancy lighting system. I know if I wake up in the middle of the night with strangers in the house, I'll grab a pistol or shotgun, and sure as hell get my rear end blown away.

Some may feel that by videoing questionable police activity, they are getting even with cops that hold all the cards in court. They can shoot someone with a cell phone and say they thought it was a gun, they can tell the most outrageous lies in court and the Jury will believe them because of their badge, they can plant evidence and not be questioned about it. They can raid the wrong house, and kill the homeowner for grabbing a gun to investigate what is going on. And beat people near to death, without consequences. The latest weird thing I've heard of is vaginal and anal searches on the side of the road, which is generating a few lawsuits. They even took one guy to a hospital, and gave him enemas, and xrays, and didn't find anything. I'm wondering what they said or did to bring all that down on them.
I don't remember what show it was, Kojak or one of those cop shows back in the 70's, where a detective said he always carried a spare unregistered gun that he could plant on someone they shot if he was unarmed, so they could say he had a gun, and then planted it on someone they just killed. I know that was just TV, but it made me wonder if that really went on. And frankly, if they take down some big wig gangster, by doing some shady things, then who cares? Just one more scum bucket off the streets. I wouldn't care if they caught someone dealing large quantities of meth and took them in an alley and blew his brains out.
I'm not saying ALL of them do these things, but all have been known to happen. I guess what I am getting at is sometimes they create the ill-will that is directed at them. Most of these comments are just trying to give angryjoe-citizen's view point, As near as I can figure it out from reading comments on articles and videos. A couple are my own thoughts.

My last encounter with Police that lasted very long, I was stopped after filling up my 5 gallon water bottle at a filtered water station in the parking lot of a farm supply. Some things had come up missing so the police were watching the place, and pulled me over after I left to see if I had stolen anything, After seeing my water bottle, and nothing in the back of my SUV, the Officer and I got to talking, he had noticed the Shriner emblem on the back of my SUV, and he was a member of a nearby lodge, so we sat and visited about being Masons for awhile and this and that. He was a really nice young man. He got a call and had to run, but I was able to invite him to a sporting clays shoot my unit was putting on, and he said he'd try and make it.

The other long talk I had with one lately, was the Chief and supposed to be a real hard ass in the next town over, and a lot of folks really disliked him. He came and got a pup I had to give away, and he was as nice a guy as you'd want to meet. We talked for a long time. I kidded him about his reputation for being a hard ass and he got a good laugh out of that. I stopped in to say hi to him one day at the office and see how the pup was doing, and found out he had retired.

Something needs to be done to show the people that cops are not the enemy, I'm not sure what, but something. I think visiting the schools is a good one, get to know the kids before the gangs do.

I have no beef at all with good honest cops, which I believe most are. One would think that the good honest cops would want to be rid of the ones that give Police in general a bad reputation.