Food for Thought

[Longitude Zero]

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...d-consequences

[b4uqzme]

Thanks

[Handy]

To take this a step further, as video becomes even more ubiquitous, maybe the criminals will stop doing their jobs as well. This will result in fewer crimes and less need for a large armed patrol force that kills roughly 1200 people in the US per year.


The Police in the US have long adhered to the philosophy that officer safety is paramount, resulting in the unfortunately increasing number of "better safe than sorry" deaths. Imagine if the US military had a policy that it was more important than the country it served? This is a problem that police culture created, and I'm afraid they will have to deal with the consequences of it in the short term.

If the reaction to having their performance monitored causes some officers to stop doing their job, I'm sure there will be a number of people who are not bothered by the prospect of a good paying job to take their places. Like firefighters, police officers receive good pay, training and equipment in exchange for their commitment to risk their lives for the public good. It seems like that needs to be emphasized.

[getsome]

Good article and something to think about.....Sometimes I think that smart phones with video cameras are one of the worst ideas we ever came up with.... Everybody has one and wants to get their video up on YouTube like it's the Holy Grail of life or something....I think in the future it's going to lower the quality of Police Officers on the force because nobody will want to do the job anymore and the departments will have to hire any warm bodies they can find to fill out the ranks.

[getsome]

Like firefighters, police officers receive good pay, training and equipment in exchange for their commitment to risk their lives for the public good. It seems like that needs to be emphasized.[/QUOTE]

I really hope you're kidding with that comment....My County starts off new officers at 31 thousand dollars a year, not a lot of money to risk your life for IMHO

[Handy]

Kidding? Have you seen the pay chart for new soldiers? The median income in the US is $26,000, and the starting pay for wherever you are is $5000 more. And I'm assuming you live in a lower cost of living area, since starting pay for the LAPD just went up to $57,000, and Seattle's first year sworn officer pay is $69,000.

$69,000 is just a little less than I made as a Navy pilot 10 years ago.

[Longitude Zero]

Like firefighters, police officers receive good pay, training and equipment in exchange for their commitment to risk their lives for the public good. It seems like that needs to be emphasized.

This is the MOST uneducated and blatantly stupid statement I have read on the site. Most officers are way underpaid and barely make ends meet. Here is another educational clue you lack, the number of unpaid volunteer firefighters outnumbers the paid ones by over 10 to 1. When you pontificate about officers pay you also lack the comprehension that it is biased for cost of living. I know PO's that make less than $100 per hour. How is that for you? Would you do the job for that amount? Are you even qualified to do the job?

[Handy]

This is the MOST uneducated and blatantly stupid statement I have read on the site. Most officers are way underpaid and barely make ends meet. Here is another educational clue you lack, the number of unpaid volunteer firefighters outnumbers the paid ones by over 10 to 1. When you pontificate about officers pay you also lack the comprehension that it is biased for cost of living. I know PO's that make less than $100 per hour. How is that for you? Would you do the job for that amount? Are you even qualified to do the job?

I guess my point got lost in GetLost's objection, but I wasn't talking about pay:

No one is paid to die. But volunteering to be a cop, firefighter or soldier IS signing up to risk your life for the public good - regardless of pay. And that was their choice, so they shouldn't expect to use force every time their lives might be in danger. That's the job.

Police lives are not MORE important than anyone else's. The very nature of their job implies that their lives are a slightly lower priority than the people they serve. When a cop shoots a guy in Walmart holding a BB gun because that was the "safest" way to deal with a possible threat, they prioritized wrong. Two people died because of police actions in that case.


If you can't make ends meet, then any job or volunteer position isn't a good use of your time. It might be a praiseworthy job, but so is farming.

[Longitude Zero]

The very nature of their job implies that their lives are a slightly lower priority than the people they serve. When a cop shoots a guy in Walmart holding a BB gun because that was the "safest" way to deal with a possible threat, they prioritized wrong. Two people died because of police actions in that case.

If you had ever faced a deadly threat face to face you would feel differently. Police lives are NOT LESSER A PRIORITY! Since you have never been a law enforcement officer you are unqualified to state what the proper priorities are! I know many fighter pilots from all branches of the service and I can assure you their FIRST priority was to survive to fight another day and would NEVER make the idiotic statement that the lives of their adversaries were a greater priority than their own. In fact I know of NO competent service member that would say their lives were a lower priority than the adversary.

[Handy]

If you had ever faced a deadly threat face to face you would feel differently. Police lives are NOT LESSER A PRIORITY! Since you have never been a law enforcement officer you are unqualified to state what the proper priorities are! I know many fighter pilots from all branches of the service and I can assure you their FIRST priority was to survive to fight another day and would NEVER make the idiotic statement that the lives of their adversaries were a greater priority than their own. In fact I know of NO competent service member that would say their lives were a lower priority than the adversary.

A man with a BB gun talking on the phone is not an "adversary". He is a suspect, at best. And, in actuality, he was an innocent shopper and victim of reckless homicide by the officer who shot him. The quick conclusion that he was an adversary mirrors the officer's own negligent thinking.

I flew over water and mountain SAR for 9 years in the military. My job involved risking myself, aircraft and crew members for the people we served. I went on a SAR in a snowstorm, performed night medevacs off ships in stormy sees. In other words, I have likely faced many more "deadly threats" than you and everyone else on this board combined.

So you'll forgive me if I disagree that any innocent persons life ended by the police is the result of a "reasonable judgement call". It represents a total failure of that officer to protect the public.

[muggsy]

Being on camera didn't seem to bother the rioters in Ferguson. In fact it seemed to encourage them to engage in bigger and more outrageous acts of anarchy and violence. The hearts of some people seem to bleed for the victims of injustice, except for when those victims are hard working honest Americans. We don't live in a perfect world and sometimes bad things happen to good people. With the possible exception of me, I can't think of anyone who has never made a mistake in their lives. (The last sentence written with tongue firmly implanted in cheek.)

[muggsy]

A man with a BB gun talking on the phone is not an "adversary". He is a suspect, at best. And, in actuality, he was an innocent shopper and victim of reckless homicide by the officer who shot him. The quick conclusion that he was an adversary mirrors the officer's own negligent thinking.

I flew over water and mountain SAR for 9 years in the military. My job involved risking myself, aircraft and crew members for the people we served. I went on a SAR in a snowstorm, performed night medevacs off ships in stormy sees. In other words, I have likely faced many more "deadly threats" than you and everyone else on this board combined.

So you'll forgive me if I disagree that any innocent persons life ended by the police is the result of a "reasonable judgement call". It represents a total failure of that officer to protect the public.

Did the police officer know that it was a BB gun, or did he think that the gun was real and that his life was in eminent danger? If you thought that your life or the lives of others were at risk would you have taken the time to determine if the gun was marked, "Made by Mattel"? I can't remember the last time that I talked on the phone with a gun in my hand. Unless I intend to use it, my gun stays in it's holster. BTW, I served on and ammunition ship for four years that carried the equivalent of 100 thousand tons of TNT in an engine room where I was surrounded by high pressure super-heated steam and rode out two hurricanes in the Atlantic. BFD.

[getsome]

Thanks LZ for posting the article, it was interesting but I think I'm going to "GetLost" from this thread before I say something I might regret.....Don't feed the trolls

[Handy]

Did the police officer know that it was a BB gun, or did he think that the gun was real and that his life was in eminent danger? If you thought that your life or the lives of others were at risk would you have taken the time to determine if the gun was marked, "Made by Mattel"? I can't remember the last time that I talked on the phone with a gun in my hand. Unless I intend to use it, my gun stays in it's holster. BTW, I served on and ammunition ship for four years that carried the equivalent of 100 thousand tons of TNT in an engine room where I was surrounded by high pressure super-heated steam and rode out two hurricanes in the Atlantic. BFD.

The officers didn't know what the victim was holding, and shot him on sight. They didn't investigate, didn't give the victim time to put the BB gun down.

It doesn't matter if you "think" someone's life is in danger. The point of police is to have well equipped trained people that can make thoughtful determinations about when and if force needs to be used, not just use it "in case".

The police reacted to a call that "someone is walking around with a rifle" in a Walmart - which is a gun store. No reports of shots fired, no panic in the store. But when the cops showed up and shot the guy with the BB gun, it started a panic in the store that caused another shopper to die of a heart attack - which was ruled a homicide by the coroner.

Two deaths because the police chose immediate force over investigation. They didn't just fail to find out if it said "Mattel", but whether there was ANY other way of dealing with the situation. They reacted just as LZ did - that a report of a man holding a gun = adversary.


This could have happened to any one of us who was holding a gun or gun like object where someone else with a phone could see and call it in. I doubt if one of you lost a son who was shooting his BB gun in the yard the word "adversary" would have come up.

[Bawanna]

We're done here.