Cruz sides with Law Enforcement on Oregon Standoff

[TheTman]

Those ranchers never hurt anyone or damaged any property. The only threat they made was to defend themselves if attacked. Meanwhile the BLM is burning people's homes, burning cattle alive, and doing whatever they want. Much of this is caused over mining rights to the minerals including Uranium that lies underground on the Ranches. Hillary signed the mining rights over to a company Canadian One, that is owned by Russians. Of course she got a hefty kickback to her campaign fund for doing that.
Meanwhile, we let looters and rioters destroy millions of dollars worth of property, steal all they can grab, and injure who knows how many, over the death of a couple of criminals. The ranchers might have gone about it the wrong way, they probably should have set up camp on someone's private property, but I don't think that means you have to murder one of them while en route to a town meeting.
I don't know what you all think of the Ranchers protest in Oregon, but I would say that the BLM is acting in a very over reaching manner.
And it's all about money, with Hillary getting a big cut of it. As long as they were not a threat to anyone, I don't see the need to gun them down. The FBI had snipers in the woods around the roadblock, and there were and estimated 120 bullet holes in the vehicle. Those that survived were pretty lucky. The biggest mistake the Ranchers made is not having the support of the Ranchers they went to protest for, who really got screwed over by the feds, and not having the support of the townspeople. Plus you had MSM making them out as Heavily Armed Violent Domestic Terrorists. I wonder how it would have went down had they been black? Probably had everything they wanted handed to them on a silver platter. Now the BLM is pulling the same crap on a rancher in Texas, that has owned his ranch for over 70 years, and the BLM now comes in and tells him THEY own his property now. Is this the America that we want? I think Cruz just lost quite a few patriot supporters and those that are sick and tired of Government abuses. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ted-cruz...ors-in-oregon/

[Armybrat]

I would go with what a majority of the locals think - not the media, feds or whomever.

[TheTman]

First of all, I thought some of you might be interested in what Cliven Bundy had to say about the Oregon situation, he has some interesting thoughts on the overall matter, LaVoy Finicum, and how things went down. What he says about Finicum's killing really makes a point. It's only 5 minutes or so.
http://naughtybeyotch.com/cliven-bun...st-see-video/#

Armybrat, The majority of the locals, were townspeople, and not having their land stolen by the BLM. That's one reason why there was little support. People just aren't likely to get concerned about things that don't involve them. And then when the press turns the protesters into Heavily Armed Violent Domestic Terrorists, that isn't going to improve your opinion of them much. And I think the ranchers involved, the Hammonds, just wanted to get things over with, or perhaps work through the courts, which is probably going to prove useless. If they would have asked for help, then several Militias would have been there, but since they didn't then few showed up. I wish the Bundy's would have done things differently, but that's besides the point now. If the BLM had tried to move the people out of the town, to get at the resources under the town, then they would have switched sides in a New York Minute. The BLM is too smart to do something like that, they want to do things on a smaller scale where they can dictate the narrative. They only want to bully a few families at a time. It's a lot like the BLM screwing the Native Americans over, and most people are like "well there just Indians, who cares?" Or this guy the BLM is screwing over in Texas, it's just one guy (for now), so who cares. No matter that he's had a deed and been paying property taxes on it for 70 years, the BLM just waltzes in and says that was all a mistake and he should never have been given the deed to that land, and that they now own it. Shouldn't there be at least some kind of court proceedings or something?
I wonder what's underneath that ranch that the BLM wants?
It seems to me that it should be between the ranchers and the States, Why and how is the BLM getting into it? Especially the Texas deal. How is it the Feds own about 75% of the land in the west? Constitutionally they are allowed to own the District of Columbia and enough room for military installations as needed.
It shouldn't be about who cares, it should be about whether it's right or wrong, constitutional or not, and legal or not.

Hillary Clinton made a deal with a company called (I think) Canadian One which is owned by Russia, to mine the land up in that area which happens to contain quite a bit of uranium.
Is it not High Treason to provide Russia with uranium they can use to build nuclear warheads with, to rain destruction down on us?
And to make a tidy profit from the deal, while being Secretary of State, by getting kickback funds into her Clinton foundation, or Campaign Contributions, wherever they are going. If into her campaign funds, I thought that it was illegal for foreigners to contribute to them. And even if it's going to the Clinton Foundation, she's using that money for her campaign, so it shouldn't make any difference.
It seems like there are a couple of shady things here, using her post to enrich herself, and the Treason. Maybe using your post to enrich yourself isn't illegal, seems like most of congress does it.

The Texas deal, is close enough, that if he calls for patriot help, Some folks from my area may show up to stand with him. I have some acreage with a creek running through it. Is the BLM or EPA going to show up some day and tell me I don't own my land anymore because a federally protected water way runs through it? And that I'm unable to manage it according to their standards? Which would most likely be set impossibly high. The more the feds get away with, the more they are going to abuse their power. Obama is just itching for an armed insurrection so he can declare a State of Emergency, and call off elections, and become dictator.

I've heard some good news lately from sources several steps up from the tin hat folks, internet news personalities, and not just Alex Jones, that the military is about ready to knock the clown off his high horse and remove him from office since congress won't impeach him, before he can commit more Treasonous acts, and do too much more damage to this country. The military group is a lot like that group anonymous, no one knows who is in charge of it, or more than a few other individuals involved in it, so no one has too much information they can tell if they get detained. Somehow they know they have quite a few members. The military would have intervened during Benghazi, but they felt like the didn't have enough public support. Now they feel that they have the support. I think if the military doesn't act, the civilians will reach a point that they feel they need too. No matter what crap MSM feeds us. Several of the Internet news sites are saying we could have and American Spring here, much like the Arab Spring happened across North Africa and some Arab States in the last couple of years.
I'd much rather see the military take action, than see all the pain and suffering a civil insurrection would cause.

One of them said that a majority of states have also removed themselves from the "Corporation" of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (ALL CAPS). They are still part of the United States, but not part of the Corporation of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The is a Corporation that is The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and there is the physical country, that are legally two different entities. We have the exact same thing as individuals. There is a Legal Entity part of us, that is more or less a corporation, that must be addressed in all Capital letters, that the United States can borrow money against and use just like any other asset, and there is the part of you that is "The Living Man" or the physical you that is addressed in mixed case letters. I think Knkali posted a video once where the defendant stated he was so and so "The Living Man", indicating he was appearing as himself, not his legal corporation
If you take time to notice, you will see any legal notice to you or Government correspondence comes addressed with your name in ALL CAPS. The name on your drivers license is in ALL CAPS, your names on your marriage license should be in ALL CAPS, the name on your CC permit is in ALL CAPS. Correspondence from the IRS is in ALL CAPS. You Social Security Card, Birth Certificate, and other legal correspondence comes with your name in ALL CAPS. Kind of strange to know that there are 2 of you, the Legal, corporate YOU and the physical You. I guess it's the same way with the States. They are both a LEGAL CORPORATION, and a physical entity. I guess dissolving ties with the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, is not the same as succession, more like selling your stock and leaving a corporation, I'm not sure exactly what it accomplishes, but it must do something if the states are doing it. For some reason it's being done pretty hush-hush. Hopefully it gives the UNITED STATES less legal authority to grab land from them and to abuse federal power in those states that have done it. John Quaid, a good friend of Clint Eastwood, that appeared in several of his movies has several films on YouTube that explain some of this much better than I can. He was the leader of the comancheros in Josey Wales, and the head biker in Every Which Way But Loose. If you wish to find out more about the 2 you's. ( No Jocko, I didn't say 2 ewes). You can search for him on YouTube. Sorry for the book. AGAIN.

[TheTman]

Here is a writeup, on the trickery that has been played with the forming of the United States as a Corporation, Wars, the Federal Reserve, the crap with you being a Corporation, and some other stuff. I guess you are supposed to spread this around, and mail it to politicians and stuff. I got some of the stuff wrong about the United States Corporate Stuff, this straightens that out. It's an interesting read just to see how badly our government has messed us over through the years, especially during and after the War of Northern Aggression.

http://www.pccomps.com/graphics/public-order-2.pdf

What they want you to do with it is explained here:

http://scannedretina.com/2015/04/04/...an-inhabitant/

[Longitude Zero]

Here is a writeup, on the trickery that has been played with the forming of the United States as a Corporation, Wars, the Federal Reserve, the crap with you being a Corporation, and some other stuff. I guess you are supposed to spread this around, and mail it to politicians and stuff. I got some of the stuff wrong about the United States Corporate Stuff, this straightens that out. It's an interesting read just to see how badly our government has messed us over through the years, especially during and after the War of Northern Aggression.

http://www.pccomps.com/graphics/public-order-2.pdf

What they want you to do with it is explained here:

http://scannedretina.com/2015/04/04/...an-inhabitant/

Which has precisely ZERO to do with the justified shooting of what was perceived at the time as a deadly threat. I have scrutinized ALL the video of the shooting and it was a justified shoot. IMHO

[muggsy]

There are two ways to solve a problem. The right way and the wrong way. Taking over a government facility with heavily armed men is the wrong way. Reaching for a gun when you are pulled over by the police is the wrong way. I'd be willing to bet that the gentleman who reached for a gun upon being stopped by authorities never does it again. I side with Cruz and the cops.

[Longitude Zero]

There are two ways to solve a problem. The right way and the wrong way. Taking over a government facility with heavily armed men is the wrong way. Reaching for a gun when you are pulled over by the police is the wrong way. I'd be willing to bet that the gentleman who reached for a gun upon being stopped by authorities never does it again. I side with Cruz and the cops.

Agreed.

[downtownv]

This was never going to end well from the start....

[TheTman]

I agree they made some mistakes, like taking over a federal building. But when the BLM pushes you into a corner, you may not always make the right decisions. When the BLM is forcing people off their land, so Russians can mine the uranium and give Hillary a kickback, something isn't right. So how do you go about protesting something like that. Letters to the legislature are not going to help. The BLM put ranchers in jail for 5 years for burning public land supposedly to cover up poaching, which sounds like a crock, and then they turn around and burn ranchers homes and living cattle. I wish they would have went home when the Hammonds said they didn't want their help, but they were trying to right some wrongs.
I do know this is causing a lot of outrage among patriot groups. The Occupy movement did a lot more damage to property, interfered with people trying to get to work, and no one was shot. Women were raped in their camps they set up, but nothing was done about it. They exhibited much more lawlessness than the Bundy Militia, yet no one was shot.

Muggsy, what makes you think he reached for a gun when he was stopped? That with that many agents involved that would not have been very wise. He got out of the truck with his hands in the air, no gun was visible. You sound like the libtards that have bought into the MSM story about the Violent Heavily Armed Domestic Terrorists on the Rampage. They Harmed no one, and Damaged no property. All they wanted to do was get the BLM to stop abusing their power. And rightfully so. Do we want Russian mining uranium to build more nuclear warheads to bomb us with? This was a treasonous act negotiated by Hillary, with kickbacks from Russia going to her foundation or campaign funds. That should be enough to anger any REAL American right there.

LZ the other stuff I posted was just an off shoot of some of the things I talked about earlier, it didn't have anything to do with the Oregon shooting, but does show a pattern of Federal abuses starting during the War of Northern Aggression. My point being, how long do we stand for these abuses?

LZ how can you tell from that crappy video from a helicopter whether the shooting was justified? There was no sound, you can't tell what was said, and how Finicum reacted to any orders that were given to him. Other forensic experts have said there wasn't enough there to really make a decision one way or another, but they weren't law enforcement, and looking through law enforcement eyes.
Witnesses says his hands were in the air, and they shot him in the face, but he did say if you need to shoot someone shoot me, and not the women.
I bet if they were black that they would have gotten most the things they asked for. Of course you are going to side with law enforcement since you are one of them.

I hope you are both happy, now the BLM is really going to abuse it's power. And really mess over the Ranchers to get at the minerals underground. FOR RUSSIA'S BENEFIT. Hillary should be hung for treason over this. And the BLM should be broken up. They've been messing over the Native Americans for years, and then started in on the ranchers but no one cares because they are Indians. I think they shot Finicum and tried to kill the others as payback for the Nevada standoff.

[Arkansas Bob]

Another layer of tinfoil please!

[Longitude Zero]

LZ how can you tell from that crappy video from a helicopter whether the shooting was justified? There was no sound, you can't tell what was said, and how Finicum reacted to any orders that were given to him. Other forensic experts have said there wasn't enough there to really make a decision one way or another, but they weren't law enforcement, and looking through law enforcement eyes.
Witnesses says his hands were in the air, and they shot him in the face, but he did say if you need to shoot someone shoot me, and not the women.
I bet if they were black that they would have gotten most the things they asked for. Of course you are going to side with law enforcement since you are one of them.

Actually if you pay attention that video was actually quite good. You can clearly see his hands down around fiddling at his waist has he goes down. He spouted off several times about how he was always armed and would not go down without a fight. Nobody has yet seen the autopsy report so precisely where the bullets entered his body is pure conjecture at this point. Witnesses on the Bundy side are known and proven liars and not really believable. EVERYTHING the Bundies is involved in is a red herring to knowledgeable observers. As to siding with LEO's I have condemned their actions when I believed they were wrong. I am no backer of the BLM or the FBI but in this case justice was properly served. Your Tin Hatter aka Chicken Little schtick is wearing a bit thin on facts/reality/accuracy. Just like the little boy crying wolf.

[muggsy]

He emerged with his hands up and then went for his waist band where he had a gun concealed. That was the wrong thing to do. He paid for it with his life. Things in life don't always go the way that you want. Cooler heads prevail. Hot heads do not. We are a nation of laws not a nation of men. If you don't like the law you work to change the law. You don't take the law into your own hands. I guess that's why I'm a Cruz supporter and you support Trump, Tman. I don't allow anger to cloud my vision or determine my actions.

[TheTman]

As far as his arms dropping, the snow was deep and difficult to get through with your hands above your head, he may have dropped his arms to keep his balance. Without sound, we have no idea at what point he was shot, so he may have been reacting to being shot by grabbing the area he was shot in, and fiddling with his waist. I would also like to see a coroners report, after hearing that he was shot at least 3 times while he was lying on the ground. I'd like to see an INDEPENDENT coroners report, not one that has been doctored by the FBI. I bet the coroners report is going to back up the FBI narrative 100%. That is why I want to see and independent report. I still think it's difficult to get a proper analysis with no sound, since we can't tell when he was shot we don't see ALL the shooters, there were snipers hidden in the woods that aren't on camera that may have taken a shot. I think we've all said things, that we may not actually follow through on depending on circumstances. Muggsy, if Cruz had said the shooting was unjustified, would you be agreeing with him? It appears the Cruz can do no wrong in the book of Muggsy.

From and Independent forensic analysis, from someone that is not in law enforcement.
"After careful examination of the video footage of the shooting of LaVoy Finicum we found that the movements of Mr. Finicum's body, his arms and hands are consistent with the reaction when one is shot. He exits his vehicle with both hands/arms in the air and keeps them in that position for awhile, then we see a quick drop and his right hand goes to his lower left side, his hip or abdomen area, as if grabbing where a bullet struck. His body also is turning from right to left and we see his knees buckle and one point and his right leg moves back, he then places his right hand in the middle of his torso, another very possible reaction to a gunshot wound. Why would a man who exits his vehicle obeying the commands of the State Troopers/Feds, with both of them at close range and their weapons pointed directly at him, then decide to reach for a weapon?
Then Mr. Finicum drops his hands and then raises them and then drops then again and raises them. Mr. Finicum was having great difficulty keeping his balance in the deep snow. That could also explain why his arms droped, to keep himself from falling over. Receiving gunshot wounds will also affect ones arms when they are raised up and cause them to drop down.
The natural instinctive reaction is to grab the area where one has been shot.
Very important to NOTE, that as soon as Mr. Finicum had exited the vehicle, with his arms in the air, the Troopers/Feds to the right and the one to the left, quickly move in, in a combat tactical approach to takeout a target.
Clearly the Troopers/Feds were not attempting to get Mr. Finicum to comply, the Troopers/Feds were moving at a very rapid pace, closing in to neutralize him, aka kill him. This all took place in the span of 6 seconds.
At no time did Mr. Finicum produce a weapon and according to applicable law, the use of deadly force is justified only when there is a genuine threat of death or serious bodily injury. No such threat was present when the State Troopers/Feds shot Mr. Finicum, multiple times.
There is something very wrong here and a full impartial investigation needs to be conducted to determine what took place. All other video, Bodycam and Dashcam w/audio needs to be reviewed and an impartial examination of Mr. Finicum's body needs to be done, to establish how many times he was shot and the exact location of those gunshot wounds. #JusticeforLaVoy

[TheTman]

You guys do know that you already have won your case in the court of public opinion. Probably at least 75-80% of the population has swallowed the pablum that MSM news has fed them about the Bundy's being heinous outlaws, that should have been taken out Waco style. Thank God that there are still some of us that don't lap up the MSM stories they try to feed us.
Much of which is centered on gun-control, planned-parenthood being an innocent provider of women's health services, and Hillary being the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy, and innocent of all the accusations that are leveled at her. Along with much kissing of Obama's rear end, and supporting almost everything he spouts out, and other libtard issues.

[downtownv]

Another layer of tinfoil please!

Uhhh, does that mean you believe AND support EVERYTHING the Government does?