Draw versus Draw and Fire

[ptoemmes]

...

I have a question. If you show your gun but do not draw it (it stays in the holster) is that brandishing?

I am the OP so thanks to all who have responded. I think THIS ^ is key and think it may need to be made a separate post even though it is likely to be different on a state-by-state basis. Go for it AIRret if you choose.

I have been remiss in not rereading Florida's statute as there have been some recent changes. In a quick search of the statute: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0790/0790.html
I do not see the term brandishing mentioned or defined (may have missed it).

Perhaps this is what covers it:
"
790.001 Definitions.—As used in this chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:
...
(2) “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.
(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.

...

790.053 Open carrying of weapons.—
(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
(2) A person may openly carry, for purposes of lawful self-defense:
(a) A self-defense chemical spray.
(b) A nonlethal stun gun or dart-firing stun gun or other nonlethal electric weapon or device that is designed solely for defensive purposes.
(3) Any person violating this section commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
History.—s. 1, ch. 87-537; s. 173, ch. 91-224; s. 3, ch. 97-72; s. 1205, ch. 97-102; s. 3, ch. 2006-298; s. 1, ch. 2011-145.

...

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
History.—s. 1, ch. 4532, 1897; GS 3272; RGS 5105; CGL 7207; s. 5, ch. 69-306; s. 743, ch. 71-136; s. 2, ch. 76-165; s. 174, ch. 91-224.
"

I see references that that the Florida law has been changed - perhaps recently - to exempt the accidental or unintentional display of a holstered firearm from being considered illegal. As the to the intentional "display" of a holstered firearm in an attempt to alter an encounter, I dunno yet.

All of this in the context of - in any given situation where me (or my loved ones) safety is in question and deciding the course of action in the next second or so - I will not be running Florida statutes though my mind.


Pete

[muggsy]

Section 790.10 is exactly how brandishing is defined by Ohio law.

[muggsy]

It takes about 2.5 seconds for an attacker to cover a distance of 21 feet, the distance that most of us practice our shooting from. Two and one half seconds is not a lot of time to deliberate the consequences of your actions, or in action. One and a half seconds is all you have to draw and fire. Shoot first and deliberate later. You can bet that your attacker isn't deliberating his actions when he's attacking you. I want to see all of you on this board for years to come. Survival is a mind set.

[OldLincoln]

790.10 is your friend in the case of somebody approaching with a knife or threatening manner. It is legal to draw your gun for self defense if you only do so in the reasonable fear of your life. Reasonable is what a reasonable person would do in your situation. The DA & jury decide on reasonable. I say pulling the gun to ward off a shooting is reasonable. Many disagree with me and that's fine as long as they make the conscious decision for themselves.

We all live with consequences of our decisions. When first starting to carry I spent many hours studying this very subject reading scenarios and deciding what I would do before reading other responses. I learned that responses will vary just as this thread but formed my thinking based on the consequences discussed.

I seriously considered giving it up as the opinion generally expressed by the law was either way your were screwed. If not by the DA then in civil court. However I have seen a shift in public opinion and expressions of law agencies since and I'm glad I stuck it out. But I will do my best to make sure I don't pull a stunt like playing police officer looking for trouble.

[muggsy]

I too, studied all of the legal ramifications. I decided that breathing was a far better option than not breathing. If you shoot first you will have plenty of time for remorse later. If you don't shoot there may not be a later. Criminal attackers have no remorse for those who they maim, or kill.

[chrish]

Oh, I'll have no remorse...please don't misunderstand my position to include any concern for the bottom of the gene pool. I was ONLY coming at this topic from the standpoint of keeping my own tail out of prison for even a night. If the timing doesn't allow for me to make any other decision or take any other actions...it'll be draw and fire. I may be worth more dead than alive...but I will choose the latter over the former.

[muggsy]

Keep these pictures in the back of your mind when someone is advancing on you.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/246460/sucker_punch/

http://www.break.com/usercontent/200...rrested-140223

[jouesdeveau]

So: if you unholster your weapon "in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense" you are liable. I read that as meaning that if you unholster your weapon "in necessary self-defence" (but do not fire) you are NOT liable for the crime of brandishing.

IS THAT CORRECT?

[les strat]

You guys might remember last December, I pulled my gun out of the holster on a gang member (clearly) that aggressively approached my truck (wife/kids with me). The CM9 was out of the leather, but clearly, I was not going to shoot unless he made a move, and I did not point it at him. If I raise to point, it is the shoot. I'M GLAD I DID NOT HAVE TO. I don't think many or any here can digest the ramifications that will come from shooting someone. But I can say that I would have without a doubt in my mind. His life vs my family. That's a no-brainer. Glad a good dominant alpha male stare and a firm "No" got my point across.

[muggsy]

You guys might remember last December, I pulled my gun out of the holster on a gang member (clearly) that aggressively approached my truck (wife/kids with me). The CM9 was out of the leather, but clearly, I was not going to shoot unless he made a move, and I did not point it at him. If I raise to point, it is the shoot. I'M GLAD I DID NOT HAVE TO. I don't think many or any here can digest the ramifications that will come from shooting someone. But I can say that I would have without a doubt in my mind. His life vs my family. That's a no-brainer. Glad a good dominant alpha male stare and a firm "No" got my point across.

Seated in a vehicle I might have done the same Les, but I wasn't talking seated in a vehicle. I'm in no hurry to shoot or kill anyone, but I won't hesitate if push comes to shove. Both my father and the military taught me that you don't pull a gun unless you intend to use it. If I pull it, I intend to use it. My younger son hesitated once. It almost cost him his life. The doctors used four titanium plates to put the bones in his face back together. The police never caught the S.O.B. that attacked him.

[chrish]

So: if you unholster your weapon "in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense" you are liable. I read that as meaning that if you unholster your weapon "in necessary self-defence" (but do not fire) you are NOT liable for the crime of brandishing.

IS THAT CORRECT?

In some place, yes, that's exactly what that means. In others, not so much, you draw and the local/state laws are not gun friendly, you may be in serious trouble.

I think everybody here agrees w/ that.

But there are (or seem to be) varying degrees of what people intend, practice, etc. with how they would ultimately react if presented w/ the need to defend themselves. None of which are wrong or right IMO, just different, and every action you take will ultimately have its own pros and cons.

I think the general idea(s) to take away from this thread are first and most importantly, be VERY self-aware of what you are willing to do and capable of doing to defend yourself. Second, practice and be ready to implement that action that you've decided upon virtually automatically but with clarity in what you are about to do (if that's even possible once put in a terrible situation). And third, if you are so inclined, be VERY aware of the laws in any given area you intend to carry in and if you feel it to be prudent, factor that into your equation for the second item above.

Just my take on this entire thread...which is been a very good discussion for me to see other sides and thoughts!

[jimbar]

I've read the laws for Wa state, and as I understand it, according to part c of subsection 3, I am legal to show, or draw my weapon, without firing, and not be guilty of "brandishing". I certainly hope I'm never in a situation to make this choice, but hope if so, I do not take a life when just the drawing of a weapon will repel the threat.Everyone should be familiar with your states laws,...just in case.


RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.