DocGKR - Ballistics Expert

[jg rider]

I stumbled onto this old thread and I thought I may be able to contribute to it. I think some will be bored with this.
I've been a long time follower of Doc.GKR, and Doc. Martin Faclker since the early,mid 2000's. And my interest in ballistics results goes back to the FBI 1986 Miami, FL. firefight.
I've lost most of what I had from these writings.

http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads...ry_roberts.pdf

This is what someone at AR.15 put together of Doc GKR's writtings, thanks

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel...#mozTocId20101

I found this to be very informative of what happened in 1986

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html

Here's a site I go to where Doc GKR contributes. Read the stickies. I apologize to the mods for posting another forum link, but I didn't think it conflicted with what is done here.

https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition

Then there's this written by Doc. Martin Falker

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

Here's the one under "The Human Target" heading along with suggestions from local deputy sheriffs that decided how the wife and I practice for real world encounters.

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

IMHO is there isn't any true one stop bullet, just some that may work better.
Because of my own ballistic tests, we decided on two brands for our K & PM9's, and Glock 17, 9mm 147 Fed. HST & 147 Win. RA9T. For 1911 .45's the same. We also felt in the event of a involved shooting we wanted to carry what local LEOs carried, but you knew that.

We practice with human shaped targets that are rounded to resemble the human torso. With a post or something in the back of it to simulate the spinal column. So shots taken at an angle may start through the rib cage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuwSzVBguDY

Ok ! Everybody can wake up now

[Bawanna]

The Miami shootout has had a profound effect on many things and continues to do so today.

I don't give it much credence myself. They knew what they were dealing with and rather than properly gear up or put more qualified people on it the primarily office workers went out in suits and ties and 9's.

Suddenly everyone needed bigger guns. I agreed with this. Now the circle is coming around again and the 9's acceptable again due to better bullet technology. This I do not agree with.

Sadly the FBI was hopelessly outgunned both in firearms and tactics.

[b4uqzme]

Cool thread. It makes my head hurt tho. For now, I'm sticking with my .40. Old habits die hard.

[jg rider]

The Miami shootout has had a profound effect on many things and continues to do so today.

I don't give it much credence myself. They knew what they were dealing with and rather than properly gear up or put more qualified people on it the primarily office workers went out in suits and ties and 9's.

Suddenly everyone needed bigger guns. I agreed with this. Now the circle is coming around again and the 9's acceptable again due to better bullet technology. This I do not agree with.

Sadly the FBI was hopelessly outgunned both in firearms and tactics.

I agree that they went into a situation not being prepared for all eventualities, but they all weren't carrying 9s There were some .357's, but god only knows why they were loaded with .38 158 +P rnds. IIRC those were an instant fight stopper

Weaponry and wounds

Agents

• Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor wounds from shotgun pellets.
• Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver, six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck.
• Edmundo Mireles: Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun, five rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver, Smith & Wesson Model 686 (Not FBI issue, but personally owned .357's and .38's could be approved for carry by supervisors, same applies with McNeil's Model 19), six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
• Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown, likely a Model 13, as it was an issued weapon at the time) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Wounded by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
• John Hanlon: Smith & Wesson Model 36 .38 Special revolver, five rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
• Benjamin Grogan: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, nine rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
• Jerry Dove: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 20+ rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
• Ronald Risner: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 14 rounds fired, S&W Model 60 .38 Special revolver, one round .38 Special +P fired. Not wounded.

Suspects



Ruger Mini-14

• William Matix: Smith & Wesson Model 3000 12-gauge shotgun, one round #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
• Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington with folding stock, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.

After 1986 the FBI seemed to still like the 9mm rnd. All they did was change guns. From S&W to Sig, to Browning Hi Powers for HRT's. Weren't .45's in there somewhere ? I seem to remember some Hi-Cap Para-ordnance in there somewhere.
Then what, they went to a loaded down 10mm rnd. that agents complained about. Then when the .40 S&W rnd. came out they jumped on that bandwagon. IIRC there were complaints about that.

Now they're back to 9mm's which with today's technology I agree with. All test I read about say it does just as well as the .40 S&W.

Portland P.D. got away from .40 Glocks to 9mm Glock 17's years ago. And recently my local Sheriff's dept. went away from .40's and now allow .45 and for small hands 9mm for Glocks. I never liked shooting the .40's

My original boring to some reply was about individuals that I respect in the field of ballistics. And because of these I stick with my + opinion of 9mm ammo

Are we still friends ?

[Bawanna]

We're pals. My day for a 9 will come but I'm holding off just as long as I can shoot a 45 without crying in pain.

Actually the complaints were about the 10mm, in answer to that in addition to tearing up guns not yet designed to handle the 10 the girlymanned it down to 40's. I never cared for the 40 myself. They are ok in full size guns but not in compacts.

I have a K40, too much flip for carry.

[jg rider]

I guess the love affair with 9mm still goes on.
Remember the 1997 North Hollywood shoot out. All LAPD had was Bereta 92's in 9mm or .40's and shotguns. Remember? They had to go to a gun store to stock up on better armament, until swat showed up.

I don't think there as anything LAPD could have done better with their side arms and shotguns

After that LAPD allowed .45's but still allowed the 9mm's

According to LAPD’s website, here is a complete list of the guns authorized for duty:

Beretta 92F/S
Beretta 8045
Smith & Wesson 3rd Generation models: 459, 5904, 5903, 659, 5906, 645, 4506, 4566, 4567, 5903 TSW, 5906 TSW, 4569 TSW, and 4566 TSW
Glock 17
Glock 19
Glock 22
Glock 23
Glock 21
As far as know then and maybe now they use Fed HST in .45's And Win 147 Ranger T series for 9mm

Here's a documentary with real footage of that shoot out. Damn ! I'm really enjoying posting vids now that I know how to do it. Thanks EdM

[berettabone]

Cool thread. It makes my head hurt tho. For now, I'm sticking with my .40. Old habits die hard.

That makes 2 of us................always .40, always will.

[jg rider]

That makes 2 of us................always .40, always will.

I respect your decision
But I know there's a lot of agencies going away from .40's.
And for us the quicker accurate recovery time for follow up shots is key.
I wish I could find a way to copy & paste some .pd files from what was then ATK, the parent company of Federal doing ballistic tests into b.g. at three different Sheriff's departments in Wash. Oregon & California for different ammo brands and calibers.

Since I don't know how I only have this. Again my apologizes to the mods

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...11&whichpage=1

[b4uqzme]

?..
And for us the quicker accurate recovery time for follow up shots is key...1

I can't really explain it but my follow ups are better with .40. So much so I choose it for IDPA. I think maybe that legendary "snappiness" snaps the muzzle back in line quickly too? All I know is it works for me.

[berettabone]

I would tend to agree with your statement. I try to explain it to my associates, but I'm not sure they are getting the concept. To make it easy, I just say that I think that the 9mm round is a bit lazy with normal loads. In contrast, I think the .40 round is more robust. That snap, recoil, flip, what ever you want to call it, actually helps me get back on target faster than other calibers. If you shoot/practice with the round exclusively, you get more accustomed to the flip, and turn it to your advantage. It's almost like you can(and I said almost) relax your grip and your arms, and let the flip do all of the work. The firearm just comes back down naturally. It's a very difficult thing to explain, but when I go shooting, it's a bit of 9mm, but mostly .40 cal. I don't know if it matters, but I shoot .40 cal out of compact firearms only. I have no practical proof to any of this, it's just how it is with me. I know others who also prefer .40 over everything else. Whenever I get a feeling that .40 is a bit robust, I shoot heavy .357 loads out of my wife's SP101. .40 is a piece of cake.

[jg rider]

I would tend to agree with your statement. I try to explain it to my associates, but I'm not sure they are getting the concept. To make it easy, I just say that I think that the 9mm round is a bit lazy with normal loads. In contrast, I think the .40 round is more robust. That snap, recoil, flip, what ever you want to call it, actually helps me get back on target faster than other calibers. If you shoot/practice with the round exclusively, you get more accustomed to the flip, and turn it to your advantage. It's almost like you can(and I said almost) relax your grip and your arms, and let the flip do all of the work. The firearm just comes back down naturally. It's a very difficult thing to explain, but when I go shooting, it's a bit of 9mm, but mostly .40 cal. I don't know if it matters, but I shoot .40 cal out of compact firearms only. I have no practical proof to any of this, it's just how it is with me. I know others who also prefer .40 over everything else. Whenever I get a feeling that .40 is a bit robust, I shoot heavy .357 loads out of my wife's SP101. .40 is a piece of cake.

I guess it's what you're use to, and what you own. I wouldn't want to go out and buy a new gun base on someone else's opinion.

Like bruqzme, the wife and I shot IDPA matches, and before that IPSC in the late 70's, then UPSA with major powered 1911 .45's. We got out of that when the gamesmanship started. We tried IDPA, me with a .45, and her with a borrowed .40. She didn't like the snap, and I had to agree. She preferred the push of a .45.
Then I had to have my knee replaced, so no more running and jumping. We only compete Steel Challenge matches. Me with a light loaded .45, her with a Glock 17 or her .45.

I all my years of shooting I, as others have, come to my own observations / conclusions. I can take two identical set up .45 1911's, same load, one mine and a borrowed one, and draw and shoot double taps or Bill Drills. With my gun I can do .18- .20 splits with all A zone hits. With the borrowed gun the times are slower and some of the hits are B zone.
The only difference between pistols is that mine has a 20 lpi checkered front and back strap. So I tend to use a more relaxed grip. With the smooth front and serrated rear back strap borrowed 1911 the gun would slip in my hands.

I even tried this with my checkered gun against wife's stippled one. I still lost some control





When I tried the same drills with a .40, I was all over the place. Grip and muscle memory went all to hell.

But that's playing games, although there is a bit of adrenaline flowing. We practice a lot for real world encounters. With the biggest fear being of missing the subject and hitting an innocent bystander

Looking at ballistic results of 147 9mm vs. 180 .40, IMO there doesn't seem to be much difference in penetration / expansion

So for us the 9mm is the more controllable round for follow up shots out of our Kahrs

Check out my above vid and link, you'll see very little muzzle flip. Those are all spinal column hits with no misses with Kahr K9's.





Again these are my opinions and observations.
Thanx for reading this.

[ct9kahrtoter]

I would tend to agree with your statement. I try to explain it to my associates, but I'm not sure they are getting the concept. To make it easy, I just say that I think that the 9mm round is a bit lazy with normal loads. In contrast, I think the .40 round is more robust. That snap, recoil, flip, what ever you want to call it, actually helps me get back on target faster than other calibers. If you shoot/practice with the round exclusively, you get more accustomed to the flip, and turn it to your advantage. It's almost like you can(and I said almost) relax your grip and your arms, and let the flip do all of the work. The firearm just comes back down naturally. It's a very difficult thing to explain, but when I go shooting, it's a bit of 9mm, but mostly .40 cal. I don't know if it matters, but I shoot .40 cal out of compact firearms only. I have no practical proof to any of this, it's just how it is with me. I know others who also prefer .40 over everything else. Whenever I get a feeling that .40 is a bit robust, I shoot heavy .357 loads out of my wife's SP101. .40 is a piece of cake.

Is it like that with the 10mm, for you that is? I shot a friends 10mm Glock, and loved it.

[berettabone]

Is it like that with the 10mm, for you that is? I shot a friends 10mm Glock, and loved it.

A friend of mine has a Gluck 20. Although I don't like the firearm in general, 10mm is fun to shoot, and really doesn't seem like that much recoil to me. Not much more than .40 cal........357 out of my wife's firearm seems like a lot more.