Bullet Impact Question

[OldLincoln]

I don't know enough to dispute any of this, that's why I asked the original question. I do remember the thing about the common statements about Newton and his opposite and equal reaction. Was he talking about momentum or energy? According to CJB who I suspect knows a bit more than I, it must be momentum.

I never "got" this stuff in school so though I understand what is said, I often don't understand the reasoning. If I lift a 100lb barbell (not lately!) from a bench I can say I exerted 100lbs of force on it and therefore 100lbs on me. That I get just by having doe it. The weight went up and my shoulders were pressed down. If I push 100lbs against a large boulder the energy may be applied even though it doesn't move but my shoulders still get the 100lbs against them. The mass is large, the velocity is zero but energy applied. I'm getting a headache.

[JFootin]

Me too! LOL!

[TheTman]

How many of those alpine goats were high on meth or really pissed off?

[TheTman]

To take it to extremes, you could have a bb hit you at 500,000 FPS, or an anvil dropped on you from 10 feet. Both are gonna be lethal if they hit the right spot. Most bullets are based on one theory or the other light and fast (380, 9mm, 357) vs. big n slow, (45, 44 special, 38 special) Then you have some that compromise like large grain .40 calibers, and lighter bullets in the .45 and .44 special, 147 gr bullets in the 9mm, 38 special +p with light bullets. Two of the most widely recognized lethal handgun cartridges, the .357 magnum with 125 gr hp bullet, and the 230 gr .45 hp bullet, are on opposite ends of the scale yet they are supposed to be the 2 best manstoppers. The common denominator is they both yield around or over 400 FPE (muzzle). I tend to look for SD ammo that has the most FPE with a reliable hp bullet. Too much FPE on a hardball bullet is liable to pass right through your target and do unintended damage. There's 2 more cents worth. I'm not sure you're getting your money's worth.

[Mr. S]

Now, you're comparing handgun ammo to AR15 and M16 ammo—apples to watermelons. The test I cited compares apples to apples. What we are talking about is incapacitation time. The test cited by Mag Safe was conducted without their knowledge. Here is their report.

MAGSAFE SWEPT THE STRASBOURG TESTS
The now -famous Strasbourg Tests put MagSafe on the map. To Summarize what nearly everyone already knows, over 600 live French Alpine goats (their bodies are very much like humans) were shot under controlled conditions: no anesthetic, same shot placement form animal to animal, and with blood pressure and heart rate monitors to determine the Incapacitation Time (measure of how long it took a goat to cease functioning after the single shot was delivered).

MagSafe Ammo worked - better than anything else. Tests were done without MagSafe's knowledge, so some versions tested were the lowest powered. For example, two types of .380 ACP are offered; the .380 Defender, a 60-grainer at 1,360 fps in a Colt Mustang; and the .380 MAX (designed for a big city's undercover drug agents) with a 52-grain slug sizzling along at 1,620 fps in the Mustang.

The Defender has 247 ft-lbs of energy, while the MAX load has 303 ft-lbs. The Defender's lower velocity hampered stopping power, resulting in a Average Incapacitation Time (AIT) of 7.12 seconds. That's the average time for five different goats, each shot once with the MagSafe 60-grain Defender.

However - and this is where things get interesting - there wasn't a jacketed hollowpoint bullet in ANY caliber which dropped the goats faster than MagSafe's weakest .380 load!

MagSafe's .380 beat every .45 ACP slug, every 10mm, every 9mm (including police-only ammo), every .40 caliber - no matter who made it - Cor-Bon, Remington, Glaser and HydraShok.

In fact, MagSafe's lowest-powered .380 ACP load had an AIT faster than the best manstopper of all time - Remington's .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP!

Average Incapacitation Times for all other MagSafe's calibers were in the 4-second range, and MagSafe topped the tests in every caliber but .357 Magnum (a prototype Quik-Shot beat by a fraction of a second), and .38 Special, where Glaser won by .04 seconds. Had the .38 Special tests been done in a 2-inch barrel, MagSafe would have topped that test, too.

That is pretty convincing to me.

What is convincing to you?
Reading a manufacturers webpage.

In that case you should read this one
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgist...etup=1&cart_id=


Here are a couple of questions asked on another forum about magsafe,read the response and read the screenname of the person who responded.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...hlight=magsafe

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1315727

BTW Nice thread drift!

[OldLincoln]

Wow, you're right! The test is invalid. Next time make them smoke crack and see if they drop with one shot. Just kidding!

I did find it odd however to read they thought of them as similar to humans. I thought wild boar might be closer than skinny little goats. Any of you hunters ready to face a ticked off crackhead wild boar charging at you and stand your ground with a .380 loaded with a single round of frangible ammo? You'll tell your group to be steady now only to discover you're alone!

[JFootin]

My responses in red....

What is convincing to you?
Reading a manufacturers webpage.

In that case you should read this one
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgist...etup=1&cart_id=

Well, I'm not talking about Extreme Shock, am I? I am talking about a well known ammo available all over the place, at leading retailers.

Here are a couple of questions asked on another forum about magsafe,read the response and read the screenname of the person who responded.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...hlight=magsafe

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1315727

Some comments worth noting. But Mag Safe says that THEIR ammo DOES penetrate drywall. It won't just fly right through two walls and kill the person in the second room over like a .45 would.

BTW Nice thread drift!

Yeah, I know. Sorry OldLincoln.

[JFootin]

My response in red...

Wow, you're right! The test is invalid. Next time make them smoke crack and see if they drop with one shot. Just kidding!

They had heart rate monitors on them, so they knew when their hearts stopped. When that happens, no amount of drugs are going to keep you from being DEAD RIGHT THERE!

I did find it odd however to read they thought of them as similar to humans. I thought wild boar might be closer than skinny little goats.

Those were bigger goats than we see here on people's farms. Human sized goats.

Any of you hunters ready to face a ticked off crackhead wild boar charging at you and stand your ground with a .380 loaded with a single round of frangible ammo? You'll tell your group to be steady now only to discover you're alone!

I'd want a serious hand cannon if I'm going to be facing something like this...

[OldLincoln]

Sooo weeee Pig!

[earle8888]

Re: 600 Nitro and other British doubles for Africa......
They were called "Sporting Rifles"

The reason being........ You facve a charging elephant......You shoulder your Sporting Rifle.....Fire............ When the smoke clears...(Cordite you know old boy)...The first one up is a sport..

[wyntrout]

That blown-up hog sure gets around. It's a Photoshop "classic".

I'm with Mas about the sheet rock walls. A direct hit to the wall from a Glaser is going to still have a lot of energy on the other side, because the sheet rock won't hold it back.

I've always thought about making a hollowpoint out of silver, filling the cavity with holy water, and plugging the cavity with a piece of wooden cross... sealed with wax to prevent leakage. This round would offer "lethality" to vampires AND werewolves, as well as incapacitate zombies with head shots. Of course, you still need heart shots to the first two.

Wynn

[TominCA]

Extreme shock in walls

My kid and I built a little wall (1/2 inch sheetrock either side of 2, 3.5" studs. We set it up and put a phone book 3.5" behind it. The goal was to see what Extreme Shock "Air Freedom" ammo would do after going through one wall - we were not interested in the wound, just what happens if one gets away in a gunfight in a drywall house.

We used 38 special, 9mm and 45 acp - in each case the Air Freedom really broke up in the "wall" and then penetrated the dry phonebook 3.5" behind it about 3/4 inch. You could see the bullet was pretty much fully desintigrated at 3.5 inches from the wall. It would still be dangerous - but it would never make it through another wall.

We then fired them directly into the phone books and got about 3" of penetration with a lot of destruction. The 45ACP only went 2.5 " and some Winchester 185g HP went 2.5" also as a comparison. Thr 9mm went 3" and the 9mm +p corbon went 3.5"

We also fired the Extreme Shock "Fang Face" which is designed to penetrate barriers but will fragment in flesh. It held together very well thrugh drywall and also through 3/4" particle board and went on to penetrate the phone books about 3" or so depending upon the caliber. Some of the bullets broke apart and caused a lot of damage in the paper. How would it work on a BG? I don't know but if it had enough velocity to desitigrate in the "soft parts" they would be in serious trouble! If not, it acts just like a solid - it held together much better than the Air Freedom. Like it was supposed to.

There is a third copper powder bullet they advertised as being a good round for snubbies and also safer in a home environment with sheetrock walls. This was terrible -it went through the sheetrock like a solid and then I shot it edgewise through a 3.5" 2X4!!! It went right through and kept on going (from an S&W .38 cal Chief's Special 2") I would never use this for home defense.

All in all I would use Air Freedom for home defense because it really does break up in walls and it seems to hold together a little better in phone books. Makes some nasty holes! The Fang Face looked okay and probably would do good in a stret fight. The copper "snubby" was the worst of both worlds.

We had seen some pigs shot on the internet with this stuff - so when we were boar hunting we took the Extreme Shock ammo along for finishing off any wounded animals. The pigs all died quiclkly with rifle shots so we had to shoot phone books.

[JFootin]

Very informative. Thanks!

[Mr. S]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

[wyntrout]

Thanks, Mr. S. Very informative, as well.

Wynn