CW45 (and other poly Kahr pistols): issues and fixes

[gb6491]

Jamming: failure to feed, slide hard to rack if trigger held back as posted by AFDoc http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...CW45-questions

So as you all know I've had a jamming problem when the second round tries to feed (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21135). I took it out again today and it's not improved after two trips to Kahr. Almost 500 factory new rounds through it so far. After cleaning it today I noticed something: the slide is much harder to rack after dry firing if I hold the trigger. If I let go if the trigger, it then racks easily. I checked out my PM9 and it doesn't matter if I'm holding the trigger all the way back or not, the slide racks easily.

So my question is for those with CW45's; Is the slide harder to rack when you hold the trigger back after dry firing?

So as you all know I've had a jamming problem when the second round tries to feed (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21135). I took it out again today and it's not improved after two trips to Kahr. Almost 500 factory new rounds through it so far. After cleaning it today I noticed something: the slide is much harder to rack after dry firing if I hold the trigger. If I let go if the trigger, it then racks easily. I checked out my PM9 and it doesn't matter if I'm holding the trigger all the way back or not, the slide racks easily.

So my question is for those with CW45's; Is the slide harder to rack when you hold the trigger back after dry firing?

Mine was. Here's my thoughts on this and what I did.
When you hold the trigger back after pulling it to release the striker, the trigger bar stays in contact with the cocking cam. The lobe on the cocking cam slightly overlaps the trigger bar at this point. Racking the slide, while maintaining this condition, forces the trigger bar down which further rotates the cocking cam. What I found was that the lobe on the cocking cam that raises the striker block was pinned against the bottom of the slide directly to the rear of the slide block. My first thought was that this makes it difficult for the cam to rotate enough for the the trigger bar to clear it (which also makes the trigger bar harder to push down, making the slide harder to rack). I checked for and cleaned up a burr around the lip of the hole that the striker block sits in. This helped some, but was not a dramatic improvement. I then thought to look at the striker block (as the lobe also rotated against it), so I replaced it with another I had on hand. This dramatically improved how easily the slide racked: effort was now about the same as when done with the trigger released (trigger bar is not in contact with the cam in that condition).
My conclusion (FWIW): the shape/size of the striker block lobe on the cocking cam. the size/shape of the striker block, or the slide could all be contributing factors if this condition exists on your pistol. As the striker block was the remedy on my CW45, I would suggest swapping it out for another (the PM9's should work) to see if this would give similar results. The other components would be better addressed by Kahr or a gunsmith.



Regards,
Greg

I had to read it a couple of times and then compare, again, the PM9 (which functions perfectly) and the CW45. I can see now where the cocking cam comes considerably higher (and above the top of the frame) when the trigger is pulled on the 45 versus the 9; I also note that the back end of the trigger bar goes down more on the 9 when the trigger is pulled. The CW45 is pictured first:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.p...1&d=1388010493
http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.p...1&d=1388010507

Follow up: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...origin-Round-3

[gb6491]

Failure to return to battery, failure to feed, slide stuck:

From thread: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...s-ammo-finicky!
I think this thread would be applicable as well: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...y-to-return-it

Been out of the loop for awhile and just got my hands on a PM45 that is having some weird ammo issues. I have almost 200 rds of various rounds down range that includes WWB 185 and Federal American 185 JHP. No issues at all. I went to get some self defense ammo and could not find exactly what I was looking for so tried some Hornady 185 Critical defense. I loaded up the gun and before going to the range, I tried to hand cycle the stuff and the round would not extract! I had to find a good solid door casing and forced the slide to the rear. The same thing happened when I tried using some Triple K snap caps. I took several measurements and the diameter of the Federals and WWB was .460 near the bullet while the triple K snaps and Hornadys measured at .470. I did not realize the chamber of this PM45 was so finicky about .010 of an inch? Anyone have a similar experience and will the Hornady's extract under range conditions? I got a box of Federal 165 Hydro Schox and they cycle perfect and are by the way .460. The gun is new. Thanks for your input! PS- The PM45 has very manageable recoil using 185gr and a set of Talon grips!

I've had it happen with Hornady 230gr. XTP in my CW45. Here are my thoughts on it (taken from this thread: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...t-at-the-range ):

Had the CW45 at the range today, along with a bunch of other stuff. Pulled the CW out to try the new Fiocchi XTP defense ammo I just bought. Magazine, rack it, doesn't go to battery. drop the mag, rack it. That round ejects, next one jams, solid. not into battery, slide will not move. Can't rack it, can't tap it into battery. I'm stuck with an inoperable pistol with a hot round almost into the chamber. Ended the range day. put it in a padded case. Locked it into the trunk. A quick 10 minute run to the gun shop/gunsmith. 5 minutes and $25 later, all is good again. Turns out, the cone on this round is too steep to go up the ramp. Shop said it's fairly common with this short a barrel pistol. It's a Horrandy XTP bullet in a Fiocchi case. Yes factory new rounds. Off tomorrow to see if the shop where I bought them will let me swap for core bon or golden saber. Oh yeah, actually dented the tip of the hollow point.

"Turns out, the cone on this round is too steep to go up the ramp. Shop said it's fairly common with this short a barrel pistol."
I doubt that's the case. From what you wrote earlier, "next one jams, solid. not into battery, slide will not move. Can't rack it, can't tap it into battery. I'm stuck with an inoperable pistol with a hot round almost into the chamber.", I'd guess that the XTP has engaged the barrel's rifling preventing the round from going into battery and also making it difficult to extract.

This can happen because of the round's overall length or because of the bullet's shape. We see this some in Kahr CW45s. IMO this is because they have a short amount of free bore/leade cut into the barrel. Here's a drawing to illustrate:

The top barrel has a short amount of free bore/leade in front of the chamber. I think it's pretty easy to see how some rounds might have a length or bullet that could contact the barrel's rifling when chambered.

As a quick test, remove the barrel and lightly drop a round into the chamber. The round should seat with the back of the case flush with or very slightly below the rear of the barrel hood: (image originally posted by John boy on SASS.net)

My guess is that your ammo will be slightly protruding (as in the far right above; the photo illustrates correct head spacing, but applies here).
If this is the case, I think you have about three options:
1. switch to an ammo that seats flush when you drop it into the chamber and operates correctly in your pistol.
2. Return it to Kahr for repair.
3. Have a local gunsmith ream the barrel to increase the "free bore".

I guess there's also a chance that your chamber is tight. If you can wiggle the round a little when it's in the chamber then I doubt this is an issue.

Abraxxas posted some excellent photos when he had a similar problem. In his case the free bore/leade was not cut evenly; you can see where he has adequate free bore/leade in the second photo and insufficient in the third:

I've read numerous posts online about Kahr's being picky about what ammo they will chamber and wont due to their tight chambers. I want to share what I found with mine tonight after I locked it up tight today on it's first trip to the range while attempting to chamber one of my target loads after 100rds of Remington factory ball ammo.

I pulled the barrel out for cleaning tonight and attempted to chamber some various ammo by dropping them in while holding the barrel. I found some dropped right in while others stopped short of fully chambering. This is easier than trying to pry my action open like I had to do at the range today I found that hollow points with a pronounced shoulder on them like Hornady XTP's and the Nosler Custom Competition 185's that I love to load so much for my other 45's were what caused the problem.

I took one that wouldnt chamber and dropped it in until it stopped and then grabbed the base of the shell with my fingers and twisted it back and forth about 90 deg while light pressing forward and pulled it out. The barrel is steel, the bullet jacket and shell case are soft metals so I knew the barrel/chamber should leave marks on the cartridge where it is hanging up. It was on the shoulder of the bullet as pictured below. On the left is a Nosler 185 handload and on the right is a Federal HydraShok. The Hydrashok drops right in, the Nosler does not... notice the difference in profiles close to the case mouth. The Hydrashok has a profile very similar to ball ammo until the top, so it chambers.



Because the marks from me twisting the cartridge in the chamber are on the bullet and not the casing, I started to look at the barrel and not the chamber. The chamber is no tighter than than my other 45's just by feeling the amount of freeplay with a cartdridge fully chambered. Pictured below is the lead-in to the rifling in my barrel.



It is a steeper angle than my other 45's, but not that much different... why is it touching the bullet before the cartridge is fully chambered I wondered? As Im staring at it scratching my head I noticed that the lead-in is not uniform. Pictured above is the left side of my barrel, pictured below is the right side of my barrel. Notice the difference in the angle of the bevel on the beginning of the rifling.



THIS is why it will not chamber the bullets with a more pronounced shoulder profile. Is this considered defective? Normal? I dont know, this is my first Kahr. Perhaps some of you could take a look and see if your picky eater looks like this? I could get around this by changing the bullet seating depth of my target loads to work with this gun so Im not terribly concerned about it myself at this point. I did however want to share my findings because I've read a fair amount about folks having picky eaters that wont chamber certain types of ammo. Many of the threads on various forums/reviews seem to have the XTP style bullet causing the problems.

Brian

FWIW, my CW45 had this issue with Hornady 230gr. XTP. It happened with less frequency and became easier to clear as I put more rounds through the pistol, but I eventually bought a reamer and cut more free bore/leade into the barrel. Issue fixed.



Regards,
Greg

BTW, gun papa posted a neat, easy to make tool for clearing this type of jam at the end of the thread I linked above.
Regards,
Greg

[gb6491]

Failure to chamber or RTB, possible extractor issue:
While these fixes were posted for models other than the 45 Kahrs, I'd not discount them.
This one could be tried without modifying a Kahr part by just making a new pin...say from a drill bit shank:

I just bought my wife a CW9 and had issues with the slide hanging up the last 1/4 inch or so. After much research here on the forum I found a post about shortening the rear extractor pin by .045". The person had great success with his CW9 afterwards, so I just did it on her CW9. Walked out back and tested it just now and wow, what a difference. I can slowly close the slide the last 1/4 and it won't hang up. I shot it at first with a good two hand grip, no hang-ups. Then I gave it the torture test with worse and worse limp wrist shooting, till finally I was holding it loose in one hand. It would not hang up no matter what. My rear extractor pin measured .455" from the factory, I shortened it to .410" then smoothed out the edge burrs.

Hope this helps someone, and many thanks to the forum.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...ed-slide-issue

Bought a CW 380 in December, I shot 200 rounds through it in the first couple outings, 100 rounds of Remington and 100 of Fiocchi. The Fiocchi was terrible, it fell short of battery about 90% of the time, the Remington ran "better" but still failed at least 30% of the time. The problem seemed to be the extractor, when the round was at an angle going into the chamber it was binding on the hook of the extractor, the Fiocchi rims were .015" thicker than the Remingtons and both were gouged from the extractor. Originally I tried simply deburring and softening the sharp corners on the extractor, this defiantly helped but failure to return to battery was still a huge problem. I wanted to try adding a little more clearance between the breech face and extractor hook but the extractor was already pretty minimal so I didn't want to machine anything off the hook, and removing material from the breech face is not an option, after some thought (and buying a spare extractor!) I decided to remove some material off of the front of the pin located at the rear of the extractor which would allow the extractor to move forward. I removed about .015" of material and I am happy to report that after 100 rounds (50 Fiocchi and 50 Remingtons) I had zero, thats right ZERO FTF and failure to return to battery! Just a lack of clearance, the gap between the extractor hook and breech face was too tight to allow the shell to tip in as it was stripped from the mag on it's way into the chamber. I still need a full range trip with a couple hundred rounds to be sure but going from such a high failure rate to zero I'm pretty sure I can call this thing fixed.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?26232-Found-solution-to-FTF-and-failure-to-return-to-battery-on-CW-380

Here's the spot where tigman250 removed material from:

[gb6491]

Grip too rough:
Bicycle inner tubes can help with that:
rkammer's photo
More info about this and other solutions in this thread:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...-tube-for-grip

[gb6491]

Magazine prematurely dropping out of the pistol (next to last round):
(if your gun is doing it on random round counts, you might want to see reply number 42 for jhertzler's fix )

I’m not the only one who has had this issue; here is my reply on another forum:

The magazine self-eject usually happens on the next-to-last round.

My pistol did this and a new latch fixed it.
A few words about the new latch: I called Kahr and explained my problem;the tech I spoke to immediately said he would send me a new latch. The latch arrived quickly (kudos to Kahr), A quick inspection showed that the new latch is similar to the old one, but the shelf on it had been machined at a slight angle and increased area:

*Note about latch spring installation at bottom of this post.


Now, that is all well and good, but I’m began to wonder why the original latch always dropped the magazine with two rounds in the magazine and not some random sequence.

Here’s my conclusion:
There is some side to side play of the magazine when it’s in the magazine well. With the top end removed and a magazine (sans follower and spring) in the well, if you twist the magazine base back and forth, you will see that the magazine latch stays engaged in the magazine, but that depth of engagement varies from just enough to quite a bit inside the magazine body. The latch itself does not move during this evolution. Now, my first thought was that the bullet noses were somehow disengaging the latch if the magazine twisted when there was minimal amount of latch engaged. Inserting a loaded magazine into the well, I twisted it back and forth trying to disengage the latch; no luck perhaps recoil forces are more violent and could do it. Then I tried stripping rounds out of the magazine to see if that bumped the latch out of place, no joy or movement until…the follower came up in the magazine latch cutout window.
Here, I noticed that the magazine latch moved; twisting the magazine at this point caused the magazine latch to move quite a bit, but not enough to disengage the latch. However, the most movement of the latch occurs at this point and this point happens to be at the magical two rounds left in the magazine mark.

So what gives? I believe that when the follower is at this position, during recoil the magazine twists, pushing the latch out of the frame and then twists the other way faster than the latch can sometimes react. The magazine’s spring tension and forces from the slide working over it (possibly causing it to twist as well) push it down and out of engagement while the latch is playing catch up. Note: Add to the proceeding that it might be possible that the slide is hitting the magazine, which could possibly push it out of the latch's grasp. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EBWZvFBeUY). I believe this is why the modified latch works: the magazine would have to move slightly upward to disengage from the latch making it a little more difficult to shake loose from or possibly limiting how far the latch is pushed out from the frame. A stronger magazine latch spring would probably work as well and I believe that pistols that do drop magazines probably have a less than optimal spring (for the OP: replacing your current spring might be a good idea) vice a bad latch (though the machined latch makes up for this as a repair). Still, I worried that the problem could return (big trust factor issue) and turned my attention to the magazine follower. I believe that the magazine follower would benefit if it was redesigned in a manner that would significantly reduce the chance of a marginal latch, latch spring, or both allowing a magazine to drop. The follower simply needs to be made so that it does not contact the latch at anytime. To prove this to myself, I marked the area of the follower that appeared in the latch window, then reshaped the upper portion of the follower and cut off a portion of the skirt. Now, the follower does not contact the latch at any point. I can twist the magazine to Hades and back while the latch stays in place (no movement at all). The original magazine release now works as intended (no more drops) and the magazine (in regards to this) also functions flawlessly.
Magazine latch window (OEM follower on the left, modified on the right):


Left, OEM follower (notice areas contacted by the magazine latch) 2nd from left, Modified follower.
UPDATE!!! - I now prefer to grind/sand/file the follower skirt for clearance vice cutting it (see right two photos). The upper part of the follower still needs to be reshaped for clearance as shown in the photo of the modified follower.

*If you are doing this mod to eliminate nose dives, you may not need to remove as much material as shown here. Try removing just enough material to allow the follower to pass the magazine latch without issue. You can usually see where the latch is being scrapped by the follower. (see this photo: http://i51.tinypic.com/2zf0qxk.jpg )

Disclaimer: I imagine there are quite a few (most?) CW45s out there that do not have this issue. I further believe that the modified latch and a new/stronger latch spring would fix/prevent the issue. Regardless of this (and for my own peace of mind) I'm going to run the modified magazines in my gun.

*Latch spring installation:
The spring is a press fit into the polymer, the magazine latch/catch (when installed) prevents it from working out of place.
To remove the latch, use some type of tool (I made one from a coat hanger) to push the latch spring over and out of its slot in the latch. (Alternately: push the latch in and hold the spring over while pulling the latch back; lift/pry/ the end of the spring out when the latch clears it).
With the spring end out, the latch can be pushed out of the frame.
To remove the spring: just pull it straight up until it comes free.
Compare the new spring with the old, some new ones have been reported oversize and may need fitting.
Looking down into the mag well, you will see a wedge shaped cavity in the front strap (just below the magazine catch). There is a hole into the polymer at the bottom (small end) of the wedge. Hold the spring with needle nose pliers or a hemostat, then insert the spring into that hole; use enough pressure to get it started. Release the spring, it should lay pretty flat and parallel to the front strap; put a pin punch on the visible end of the spring and push it completely into place. Look through the magazine catch round hole, the spring end should be about quarter height up in the hole (see photo below).
To install the catch, start the catch slightly, pry and hold the spring away from the front strap, push the latch into position, release the spring and slide the end of it into the cutout in the magazine catch/latch body.
Done.




to be continued...

[gb6491]

45 won't eject live round:

Photoby rjkammer from this thread: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?10123-P45-wont-extract-unfired-round

The barrel hood may not be cut for clearance (Blue arrow points to clearance cut):

Some guns may have the cut, but it may provide enough clearance as done:

Same issue in a CM45: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...-Ejection-port

[JEH]

Very good pictures and explanations. Did you consider the bullet in the Nossler handloads was not seated deep enough? I don't know the seating depth, but you can clearly see (on the excellent photo) that it not seated nearly as deep as the bullet in the Federal HydoShock. Also, the handload appears to be longer.

Unless the photo is somehow visually misleading, both conditions exist. In any case, both conditions should be considered.

I like the idea ofpurchasing a chamber reamer and eliminating problems, but that chamber should have been cut correctly at the factory. In any case, it's their job, and it should be done at their cost.

I am the disillusioned owner of a CW45 that has been back to the factory twice, and it got worse after the repairs! First time they ignored the problem failure to eject the brass. The repaired ticket said: failure to eject live rounds (duh). They replaced the barrel and polished small parts w/o improvement. Second time: still the same problem: failure to eject the brass (I sent a sample both times). The repair ticket said failure to feed (duh!!). They replaced the slide requiring me to pay a $50 transfer fee because the serial number is on the frame. Guess what? Now it has failure to feed as well. I just received a third barrel (which I have to fit, myself).

My barrels have the same freebore/lead problem (short lead on the right side). I believe, too, that Kahr is cutting chamber diameters too close the minimum tolerance, and far too many are escaping even below that minimum. In every conversation, whether spoken or written, I have made the claim that the chamber dia. is below SAAMI standards and should be at least 0.002" larger, which is less than the SAAMI max. and nice for a carry gun (not loose and especially not tight). They have completely ignored my claim, and did many things that corrected nothing, and they created new problems, as well.

If break-in period matters, I've put approx. 450 rounds thru it. They last time out it failed to feed the 5th of a 6 round mag. The next full mag. it failed to feed the 2nd round. (end of patience)

I am awaiting a phone call for details/advice about fitting the barrel, most disappointed, and just about ready to torch it in half so that it will never be in the hands of somebody whose life depends on it! Additionally, I've spent enough in ammo and the transfer fee to buy another one. On second thought, I think this is my last.
6-7-16 JEH

[nmkahrshooter]

I understand your frustration. I also had a problem with a CW45 but it was a few years back. I finally gave up and sold the gun back to dealer. After switching to Glock I found out that they were to thick for me to shoot accurately except for the G43 which is a single stack. I recently purchased a CT9 and then A CT45. It is my belief that with a longer barrel comes less problems. Both pistols have performed flawlessly and still are not to big for CCW. Sometimes you just have to give up and say goodbye. Maybe its time for you to find another solution. Good luck!