CW45 (and other poly Kahr pistols): issues and fixes

[jocko]

I

Let us all give thanks for that!

certainly do EVERY DAY!!

[incusus]

Thank you! I'm going over my new CW45 now and identifying tweaks. I do not have the slide lock issue, but noticed the loose spring condition as an easily removed slide lock. once its throughly broken in, this is first on the list of things to do/recheck.

newbie thanks you much!

[gb6491]

Seeing as how there are variances in how slides are countersunk for the front sight posts on "C" (and "E") series guns, I thought I'd put up some diagrams in regards to what I've found is involved with "fitting" the Trijicon front night sight. YMMV.
First, do a dry run installation.
Check that the sight will fit flush on the slide. Then check the posts for correct clearance on the inside of the slide. Finally, install the screw and check that it holds the sight flush to the slide and fits correctly into the countersink.


*note - in the diagrams, fit of the sight posts in their holes and screw head in the countersink are exaggerated to show the parts clearly. The posts fit closely in real life and the screw head will be in contact with the sides/bottom of the countersink.

Once satisfied that the fit is correct, install using an adequate amount of red Loctite.

Post #27 contains instruction for removing the factory front sight and installing the Trijicon sight (some mention in post #1 as well).

Regards,
Greg

[PBJ]

Much thanks for the informative and detailed post.

[rkammer]

I've adjusted my slide stop spring per Gregs instructions and video and my gun functions perfectly. But, will that screw stay put over time and usage? Seems like constant recoil would tighten or loosen it over time. Is this not the case?

[TucsonMTB]

So long as you do not over tighten it and strip the threads, it will be just fine. Mine has not moved in the months and hundreds of rounds since adjusting the spring. Most people never have a need to mess with the screw at all.

[gb6491]

I've adjusted my slide stop spring per Gregs instructions and video and my gun functions perfectly. But, will that screw stay put over time and usage? Seems like constant recoil would tighten or loosen it over time. Is this not the case?

So long as you do not over tighten it and strip the threads, it will be just fine. Mine has not moved in the months and hundreds of rounds since adjusting the spring. Most people never have a need to mess with the screw at all.

Ray,
+1 on what TucsonMTb wrote.
The screw seems to stay put once adjusted. I say that because I check the movement/tension of the stop spring when I clean my C45 and 9; so far neither has needed adjustment. I believe spring wear would more likely create a need for adjustment than the screw moving.
Regards,
Greg

[joe d]

This is a great thread...This has helped me in so many ways w/ my CW45...This is without a doubt the most awesome gun forum around w/ the most knowledgeable and helpful people...No matter what issues you may have, everyone here looks to help...

[jocko]

I have replaced one slide stop spring in over 32K rounds and probably 300+side take offs. The screw won't move from where u last turned it. That is a fragile area to look at but we realy don't have any real issues in that area.One has to be careful , that is all. I wish there was a metal nsert that the screw threaded into but again it is a wish/dream.

[rkammer]

Thanks, guys. Much appreciated.

[yqtszhj]

CW45 no trigger reset when frame is warm.

From round number 1 every time I fired a round the trigger would never reset and I mean every round of the 100 I shot today. I had to pull the trigger back with the end of my finger and let go so the trigger would spring forward and it would reset every time. letting the trigger forward like normal after firing a round would not reset the trigger.

So I remove the slide and everything looks normal. no excessive dirt or anything. When dry firing at the range I could pull the trigger, rack the slide, let it go like normal and the trigger would not reset. I had to let it spring forward. I finished the 100 rounds to see if anything else was going to occur but nothing did so I head to the house with my no reset issue.

On arriving home I get to the work bench and proceed to check things out. The trigger works perfectly. I'm like what the heck??? So I start thinking what could it be???

I get out the spray cleaner and spray around the trigger bar and trigger to make sure that the area is clean. The trigger gets rough and sticky. I put one drop at the trigger and at trigger bar and it operates like normal.

I put the slide back on and everything operated normally then it dawned on me that the gun was warm from sitting in the sun before I fired it at the range. So I set it in the sun outside the garage door to warm up. When warm it failed to reset every time. IT WAS MADE FOR ALASKA!

Here's what's happening. The trigger is pulled and the slide goes back, pushing down on the tab on top of the trigger bar. Then the trigger is released but when the gun is warm you can see the trigger bar is binding on something just enough to keep it from moving back up into the bottom of the slide and resetting the trigger. I could duplicate this every time. That is why letting the trigger spring forward would shock it just enough to go into place.

I checked behind the panel on the side and there was no garbage there but It was a little rough on the back. The trigger bar spring seems strong and tight enough to do the job. I ran out of sunlight (heat) and time before I could try it without the panel on. I guess i'll do that tomorrow. I was a bit hacked at first but I guess if they test fired this in the factory in air conditioning everything would have worked fine. I'm afraid if I send it back they'll try it at 72 degrees and it will work.

Recoil on the 45 was very manageable now if i can just get it reset at normal southeast summer outside temperatures (100 degrees) hopefully it will be good.

Update and problem possibly solved. Got up this morning and started first thing. Here is the series of events. I also used my CM9 for a reference of a correctly working gun.

First AM at room temp everything worked right with gun assembled. Trigger reset OK

Not enough heat outside to warm the gun so I pulled out the gun heater (wife's hair dryer) and warmed frame slightly. Trigger reset problem happened again right away.

Removed side panel and warmed the assembled gun. Trigger reset problem still occurred so it's not the side panel.

Checked frame for roughness and visible parts of trigger bar for burrs and found nothing.

Removed slide and checked cutout on the right side of slide for issues. No problem found.

I noticed that the problem was more obvious when slide was on and gun c0cked. Ahh, there was a clue. It seems that the c0cking cam must move some un-obvious amount more when c0cked than when not that way.

Started looking at the c0cking cam and trigger bar to find the binding and found that was where the problem appeared to be. It was like there was a burr or something either on the c0cking cam or the trigger bar where they meet for firing and resetting.

Couldn't see anything with the gun assembled so you guessed it. Out comes the trigger to get at the trigger bar. When I got the trigger bar out I could see that on the trigger bar where it meets the c0cking cam there was a sharp knife like edge. That was what was grabbing I was sure. Smoothed that front edge and another rough spot on the side of the trigger bar that could have been rubbing in the frame.

Put the frame back together (with side panel still off) and even dry w/ no oil or grease the trigger was smoother. Put the slide back on the frame and then warmed up the gun again. The reset seems to be working better. C0cked the gun and pulled the trigger just a tad and pushed the reset down to let the trigger bar tab and c0cking cam wear on each other a bit quite a few times to smooth it out further. Appears to be working better. The reset is much more pronounced like on my CM9 and my previous CW9.

Since I couldn't get to see Greg in AZ and heat stress test it there. I simulated outside summer conditions here and heated the gun to an uncomfortable handling temp to test it with the wife's hair dryer. Everything seems to be working now. Couldn't get to the range today but it wasn't as hot anyway. We are expecting a 97 degree day here later this week so I'll try and head to the range then to lay it in the sun and shoot it. I may be good to go. We'll see.

Summary. Tolerances are TIGHT in this gun. Not like my full size 1911 or 92FS. The frame and/or slide slightly warming was changing tolerances enough to malfunction. This would not happen at 75-80 degrees. Also there is not much polish room with the long trigger pull and long reset.

If you are of the faint of heart I don't recommend the trigger part to just anyone. I didn't think it was too bad but I have gotten myself in such a big enough mess before that this was relatively minor. I didn't even swear or anything.

[gb6491]

Excessive front end play when the slide is in "battery"/forward (also: slide stop works it's way out):
Perhaps this should be called a "short rails" issue
Info here:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.p...0&page=1&pp=10

.... holding an empty CW45 in one hand, grab the slide in the front using finger and thumb. try to lift the slide up. try to wiggle the slide up and down. mine moves about 1/16th of an inch. is this normal? ...

..then this:

...
I finally figured out that the slide sticks out farther than the front metal guide rails. In other words the front of the slide is completley unsupported untll it travels back far enough to begin traveling on the rails. Is yours like this Marc?

I have somewhere between 750 and 1000 rounds through mine. What concerns me is that the right front rail is developing a burr, and there is a spot of wear on the slide where said right front rail is making contact. Others have mentioned that their slides are difficult to rack. I wonder if our metal rails are just about .01" too short.

I plan to contact Kahr tomorrow about a different issue (slide stop mag catch still hitting bullets and causing jams even after modification/ replacement of slide stop, as well as frequent light primer strikes). I will mention this as well.

Also, I will post some pictures of the burr on the front rail and associated wear on the slide when I get access to a faster connection.

Oh, and by the way... I'm not talking about anything to do with the plastic "rails" or the proof mark on the left hand rail, or "bowed or bent" rails. I know it's common for newer Kahr owners such as myself to see those and think there is a problem. I've read most of the forum stickys and know the basics.

Anyway Marc, mine is the same with regard to the amount of play at the front of the slide, and I know what is causing it in mine. Maybe yours is the same. I'm calling Kahr tomorrow to find out if it's an issue.

..then in another thread:

Don't think this is right. Slide stop can be removed without lining up take down marks and works its way out while shooting. The slide also has lots of up and down play at the muzzle end, as others have also noted. Will be on its way back to Kahr on Tuesday.

http://youtu.be/i9Xvbna55Kc

What I found in my pistol:

...
My pistol's issue is more in keeping with what tony k wrote in post #3; "the slide sticks out farther than the front metal guide rails. In other words the front of the slide is completley unsupported untll it travels back far enough to begin traveling on the rails."
It's not about the width of the grooves in the slide as compared to the rails in the dust cover. What I'm seeing is that when the slide is completely forward/in battery, the grooves are ahead of the end of the frame rails.
I think a properly made poly Kahr (or least it's how my CW9 is made) would have a slide and front rails interface something similar to that in this photo:

My CW45 has this instead:

In this condition, the front of the slide is being held in alignment by the poly rails on top of the frame. If I apply a small amount of pressure to the dust cover at this point, it's not possible to retract the slide. I'll grant that the chances of an sort of similar pressure happening during the actually operation of the pistol is remote, but I also find it conceivable that conditions of heat or cold might possibly cause the frame to move out of alignment enough to produce similar results.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbM9ADBIQcc
Regards,
Greg

An easy check to verify the "short rails" issue:

... I've found it's much easier to check for the issue by pinching the slide and dust cover together. Then while holding them together, see if you can move the slide rearward. I couldn't do so on my older serial number CW45 or the one I checked in the store. Post repair: I can easily move the slide with no hint of it stopping or even catching on anything.

Checks good

...

*Kahr has been replacing frames to fix this issue (kudos to them).

Mine has been without issue since it's return and I've read of similar results from other posters.

[kahrinca]

Reinstalling the slide:
My CW45 has always required a slight manipulation of the trigger during reassembly.
The rear of the slide first encounters a slight resistance, then passes over the cocking cam; at this point, the slide's position is quite similar to that in the OP's photo and cannot be moved any further rearward. Pressing the trigger lightly at this point allows the slide to continue backward a slight amount and the slide stop can be installed. I believe the slide is catching on the trigger bar and the slight movement of the trigger frees it up for the remainder of the required distance. The gun operates fine when fully assembled.
Video of the sequence required on my pistol:
YouTube - cw45.WMV
Regards,
Greg

Read the above post and watched the video. If only it were so simple with my unfired and Froglubed PM9.

It is difficult to get the slide back to insert the pin about half-way into the left round hole for the slide stop. Partially depressing the trigger does not work as in the video. Sometimes I am able to get it back using the force of my palm, other times not.

Removed the recoil spring and guide rod because I happened to notice what appeared to be a visible portion of the spring sticking out a bit where the guide rod displays below the muzzle. The open coil of that spring was situated at the 12 o'clock position upside down in the guide role hole, which is my custom.

I tried changing the open end to situate in the upside down slide at the 6 o'clock position and did not thereafter have this problem. I will see how this works at other positions.

Can't say this definitively was related but it seemed to solve the problem.

I've found the slide actually has to go a bit beyond flush (about 1/4- 1/2") with the frame in order to situate its round pin halfway into the kidney hole of the locking lug at the 4:00 position. Then I insert the right side of the stop at the 3:00 position in the half-moon and it snaps closed.

This is kind of strange, but it function checks fine.

Comments?

Later: Positioned the open coil at the 3:00 position in guide rod canopy and it worked okay. Beginning to think that the guide rod and spring were not aligned properly in the slide that caused the problem. Whatever...just a bit frustrating assembling the slide to the frame in sense of getting the slide back far enough.

[gb6491]

Trying to add an index to this thread, so I had to move this post. Sorry for any inconvenience

Night sights:
I installed the night sights on my CW45 and I'm very pleased with them.
Some thoughts:
- The sights are well made. I would prefer Meprolight sights and their sealed capsules, but oh well.
- The stock front sight snaps off (per instructions) very easily.
Here (verbatim) are the instructions for removing the front sight:
"Removal of the Existing Front Sight
1. Using a small set of vise grips, being careful not to make contact with the slide, grip the front sight and pull to remove the upper half.
2. Using a pick or very small Phillips head screw driver push the remaining portion of the polymer posts out of the slide from the top of the slide. Be careful not scratch the top of the slide.
3. Turn the slide over and ensure there is no remaining polymer in the front sight holes of the slide. If there is, gently remove it using the pick or small Phillips head screwdriver." *Member SleepyMike reports that his sight came with a TORX head screw that requires a TORX T-5 driver (another member, 07Dually, reports a T5.5 works best) to install.
I used masking tape to cover the slide around the front sight blade. I put the vise grips on the front sight blade with the jaws standing off from the top of the slide and pulled the sight off with a slight rocking motion. The posts and sight body separated quite easily. The posts and residue (the posts are melted to stake the sight on) were also removed with little effort.
- The new front sight has two posts; one is threaded. The sight is attached with a Phillips head or T5 (or possibly T5.5) Torx head screw and red Loctite.
(see more detailed installation info in post #27 http://kahrtalk.com/showpost.php?p=54961&postcount=27)

- The stock rear sight was very hard to remove. I actually damaged my sight pusher and finished the removal with a large brass punch and hammer (sight appears undamaged).
- The rear night sight needed a slight amount of material removed for easier installation; after that, installation was easy with the undamaged side of my sight pusher.
- I really like the sight picture.

- I think the front night sight should be offered by itself as it is definitely an upgrade over the stock item (it really did snap off easily). In retrospect, I would have been happy with that and have an undamaged sight pusher. I also think that a "front sight only upgrade" would be a very "doable" DIY project for most owners.
UPDATE: I was able to purchase the Trijicon front sight by itself after contacting a Kahr sale representative: also, Dawson Precision now offers front sights for Kahr CW series pistols: www.dawsonprecision.com SIGHTS FRONT:Kahr Front Sights Category
See the Dawson night sight installed here: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?p=59903#post59903


BTW: I've been very pleased these sights. Here's three magazines worth of 230gr. hardball, fired at 10 (2 ea.) and 25 yards, two handed standing:

[gb6491]

P45 trigger bar sticking: Problems with " failure to feed, failure to eject and failure to go fully into battery, not to mention no trigger reset."

As posted by dorangolv in this thread: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?21904-P45-trigger-bar-sticking-fix

Hey! I think I figured out the (Biggest) problem with my P45. I took several close up shots to illustrate it. As yet I have not seen any threads dedicated to this particular fix. At the right rear corner where the slide presses down the trigger bar during cycling, I found mine was not being pressed down but instead was getting smashed between the slide rail and the polymer frame rail.


This caused a great deal more friction and resulted in failure to feed, failure to eject and failure to go fully into battery, not to mention no trigger reset.
Why does it do that? When the trigger is pulled, the Trigger Bar (TB) slides forward. As it moves forward, it tilts inward toward the frame rail due to the torque applied from the trigger pulling and the cam resisting the pull.

In the first of three pictures you can see TB at the rear tilted slightly out, 0% trigger pull.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...r0released.jpg

Second picture; 50% Trigger pull, TB in middle and tilting inward as indicated by the shadow. At this point, the TB is most susceptible getting wedged between the slide rail and the frame rail.


Third picture; Trigger at 100% pulled all the way back, TB forward and tilted back out away from frame slightly.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...rpulled100.jpg

In this picture you can even tell the top portion of the tab has been ground away and is thinner at the top.


Here the slide rail has been worn uneven and is thinner at the end of the rail. Compare the two rail ends on the right and left. The rounded corner I did as part of the fix. But the width of the two is different.



The fix? I removed the side panel and grabbed the top of the trigger bar with pliers. I pried the top most tab of the trigger bar outwards, away from the frame rail. I had to reassemble, test and repeat several times before it was moved out away from the polymer rails and properly pushed down into the frame by the passing slide.





Suddenly the slide racks so much smoother and easier without binding up like before.
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...ingpressed.jpg
http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...notpressed.jpg


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