Magazine bullet nose dive

[Brent]

Great photos - makes a difficult topic easy to understand! Thanks

Thanks Tom! I was hoping the pics would make it clearer.

[Brent]

That looks like a possible fix for the same P380 mag problem too. Great post btw

Bob

Thanks Bob! I'm not familiar with the P380, but hope it helps there too.

[KahrOwner]

Hi Brent -

I tried this mag fix this morning and got some very weird results that I am still struggling to understand here.

I took quite a bit off my follower in the end trying to tilt the rounds backward but no matter how much I filed and sanded away the first 4 rounds would still lie in there very tightly (snug together) and then as soon as you would add a 5th round a small gap would immediately develop at the tips.

Then add a 6th round and then the gap is suddenly almost as large as the un-modified magazine. Weird!!

So... I also took apart SIG and Glock magazines (which work perfectly) and tried to compare the differences.

As near as I can tell the Kahr magazine problem seems to be related to the fact that the base of the magazine is at a much shallower angle than top of the magazine at the bullet loading area. Check this out!

So... my theory is that as the magazine fills and the spring tension increases then the bottom rounds eventually line up parallel with the base of the magazine - which is at the WRONG angle compared to the top.

As a result a big gap suddenly develops at the tips of the top two rounds.

I'm trying to think of a solution because if I only put 4 rounds in my 6 round mag then it feeds beautifully! Even 100% manually. (I guess that using only 4 rounds is ONE possible solution).

I'm currently just heading out to the range to do some more experiments - so that I have a plan B I am also taking my SIG X-Five along (at least I can relax with a little shooting if all else fails).

Bob

[Brent]

Without seeing your mag I can't tell what you have going on Bob. Did the ridge move forward where your shell casing isn't tilting on it? I could get all 6 cartridges loaded in a disassembled mag where there was no gap, but as soon as I slipped the follower in and applied spring pressure the cartridges would tilt creating the gap between the 5th and 6th cartridges. The ridge on the follower was causing the cartridges to tilt to the angle at the forward part of the follower/ridge. The lips at the top of the magazine housing would force the top cartridge to that angle, but the second cartridge down on a fully loaded mag would be at the forward follower angle. From what I see it takes a certain amount of spring pressure before it will force the tilting to the front of the follower. That is why you can get the first 3 rounds in with all cartriges touching evenly, but from 4 on they will start to tilt. Mine was definitely tilting to the angle of the front of the follower until I sanded the ridge forward. There is still some tilting, but the point of the second cartridge down is 1/16th" higher which makes a world of difference in how well mine cycles into the chamber. I have tried very hard to make it nose dive by hand racking the slide slowly and it just won't do it.

[TN_Mike]

Hi Brent -

I tried this mag fix this morning and got some very weird results that I am still struggling to understand here.

I took quite a bit off my follower in the end trying to tilt the rounds backward but no matter how much I filed and sanded away the first 4 rounds would still lie in there very tightly (snug together) and then as soon as you would add a 5th round a small gap would immediately develop at the tips.

Then add a 6th round and then the gap is suddenly almost as large as the un-modified magazine. Weird!!

So... I also took apart SIG and Glock magazines (which work perfectly) and tried to compare the differences.

As near as I can tell the Kahr magazine problem seems to be related to the fact that the base of the magazine is at a much shallower angle than top of the magazine at the bullet loading area. Check this out!

So... my theory is that as the magazine fills and the spring tension increases then the bottom rounds eventually line up parallel with the base of the magazine - which is at the WRONG angle compared to the top.

As a result a big gap suddenly develops at the tips of the top two rounds.

I'm trying to think of a solution because if I only put 4 rounds in my 6 round mag then it feeds beautifully! Even 100% manually. (I guess that using only 4 rounds is ONE possible solution).

I'm currently just heading out to the range to do some more experiments - so that I have a plan B I am also taking my SIG X-Five along (at least I can relax with a little shooting if all else fails).

Bob

This was my theory as well.

I love my CW9 I have to tell you. but at the same time, with this going on I am having a problem trusting it 100%. I've shot it at the range quite a bit but, that's loading the mags and then firing them. I have found that as I carry the mags with me through the day, the top round will start to wiggle forward a bit (spare mag) until is is almost to pop out of the mag. If I drop the mag in the gun after carrying all day, I find that the top round in that mag has also shifted forward a bit. This makes me wonder how reliable that send round I have cycle into the chamber might be in a situation when I really need that gun to work.

Honestly, I am thinking of trading my CW9 in on a Glock 26 at this point and I really am not a huge Glock fan but, I KNOW it will work.

I'm a little disappointed in Kahr because of this. They build such a great gun and then somehow screw up the magazines.

[Thunder71]

Mike, has your CW9 ever failed you?

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[gb6491]

This was my theory as well.

I love my CW9 I have to tell you. but at the same time, with this going on I am having a problem trusting it 100%. I've shot it at the range quite a bit but, that's loading the mags and then firing them. I have found that as I carry the mags with me through the day, the top round will start to wiggle forward a bit (spare mag) until is is almost to pop out of the mag. If I drop the mag in the gun after carrying all day, I find that the top round in that mag has also shifted forward a bit. This makes me wonder how reliable that send round I have cycle into the chamber might be in a situation when I really need that gun to work.

Honestly, I am thinking of trading my CW9 in on a Glock 26 at this point and I really am not a huge Glock fan but, I KNOW it will work.

I'm a little disappointed in Kahr because of this. They build such a great gun and then somehow screw up the magazines.

TN_Mike,
I'll not try to dissuade you from a G26. It's an excellent, albeit fat, pistol. I have a G27 that's been stellar for me and it used to be my carry gun. Now, I carry one of my Kahrs and have faith in them to work when I need them to.

I'd would like to address a couple of things from your post.
One is about "If I drop the mag in the gun after carrying all day, I find that the top round in that mag has also shifted forward a bit." I've seen this in my Kahrs and other pistols that use a single stack magazine (not so common in double stackers). I've also never seen it cause a problem. The round does not work itself forward during the day, but moves when the round above it chambers. To put you mind at ease, you could drop drop the mag after you chamber a round and push the round back further into the magazine.

Second, about the "...as I carry the mags with me through the day, the top round will start to wiggle forward a bit (spare mag) until is is almost to pop out of the mag." I did a follower mod similar to the one in this thread about six months ago and have not lost a round from a magazine since then. A good part of that time, I carried a spare magazine in my pocket without issue. I have since moved on to pouch carry (again without issue) and find it superior in every way (outside the small inconvenience of attaching a mag pouch to belt or waistband) to pocket carry: magazines stay cleaner, are always oriented properly, less likely to be damaged, more easily accessed, etc. You might want to give it a shot.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

BTW, a G26/27 magazine in your pocket will make the ladies think you are glad to see them (well at least partially glad).

Regards,
Greg

[jimsea]

sanding the follower as described in this thread was an excellent mod.

my CM9 would hand rack before the mod but it it was not smooth. hand racking is smooth after the mod. Thanks for the thread........great info.

[Brent]

sanding the follower as described in this thread was an excellent mod.

my CM9 would hand rack before the mod but it it was not smooth. hand racking is smooth after the mod. Thanks for the thread........great info.

Your welcome. Glad it helped yours as well.

[Tilos]

It seems to me the ammo in the mag "Fans Out" on the bullet end when the cases are all lined up on the primer end.

By lengthening the follower contact area, the ammo cannot fan out towards the bottom of the stack as much, and pushes the "stack fan out" more towards the mag lips.

just thinkin'
Tilos

[jimsea]

After reading this and Greg's thread I decided to take an extra 9mm Kahr follower I had and sand it at an angle to raise the nose of the bottom round so as eliminate or reduce as much a possible the "fanning" effect inside the mag tube. I took it down nearly to the line/seam on the back of the follower which is visible in the first pic.

After doing this, you can hand rack the slide as slow as you like and because of the modified follower which changes the angle/orientation of the rounds in the mag, the first round is prevented from nose diving and will come off the mag lips and enter the ramp/barrel smoothly. This worked for me with a CM9.

Results may vary. FWIW no animals were harmed during this mod.

[Tilos]

jimsea:
Fan'tastic, I thought I'd get a lot of huh type question about my "fan" post.
It's good to hear about your success.

Another thing I noticed about the sandpaper/pencil mod is the radius it forms is smaller than that of a 9mm case.
The case rides up out of this radius on the sides of the follower, directly under the mag lips.
This is, as mine was stock (smaller radius) and wonder if matching the radius to the 9mm case would get even better function.

I guess if I do this and it's worse I'm only out $6 plus shipping.
jimsea...why not try it.
Tilos

[Lobo_79]

What photo software are you using to show yuor arrows and text? I need something like that for my Mac.

Google Inkscape for the Mac and you'll get a great open source graphics tool for free.

[jocko]

a

TN_Mike,
I'll not try to dissuade you from a G26. It's an excellent, albeit fat, pistol. I have a G27 that's been stellar for me and it used to be my carry gun. Now, I carry one of my Kahrs and have faith in them to work when I need them to.

I'd would like to address a couple of things from your post.
One is about "If I drop the mag in the gun after carrying all day, I find that the top round in that mag has also shifted forward a bit." I've seen this in my Kahrs and other pistols that use a single stack magazine (not so common in double stackers). I've also never seen it cause a problem. The round does not work itself forward during the day, but moves when the round above it chambers. To put you mind at ease, you could drop drop the mag after you chamber a round and push the round back further into the magazine.

Second, about the "...as I carry the mags with me through the day, the top round will start to wiggle forward a bit (spare mag) until is is almost to pop out of the mag." I did a follower mod similar to the one in this thread about six months ago and have not lost a round from a magazine since then. A good part of that time, I carried a spare magazine in my pocket without issue. I have since moved on to pouch carry (again without issue) and find it superior in every way (outside the small inconvenience of attaching a mag pouch to belt or waistband) to pocket carry: magazines stay cleaner, are always oriented properly, less likely to be damaged, more easily accessed, etc. You might want to give it a shot.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

BTW, a G26/27 magazine in your pocket will make the ladies think you are glad to see them (well at least partially glad).

Regards,
Greg

salami in ones pocket trumps a G26 magazine all day, if u know what I mean.

[cpham9006]

The mag for my CM9 is doing just that showed in the pictures. When loading the mag, on the 5th and 6th round it starts to have a huge gap between the previous round! Do I really have to sand down my mag or can I get Kahr to send me a replacement?