CW45/P45: Flush fit magazine - UPDATED

[wyntrout]

I just used the follower and spring from the Colt Offer's Model SS 6-round magazine and got 6 rounds into the Kahr 5-round (K5), and the Wilson Kit in the COM to insert seven rounds and take up less space than the 6-round Kahr 6G model.
Link:

http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistol...html#post36945

Wynn

[Mr. Zero]

I just used the follower and spring from the Colt Offer's Model SS 6-round magazine and got 6 rounds into the Kahr 5-round (K5), and the Wilson Kit in the COM to insert seven rounds and take up less space than the 6-round Kahr 6G model.
Link:

http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistol...html#post36945

Wynn

Wynn,

Thanks for the experiment and post. Since you have not range tested your combo let me issue a warning: The followers your using have no front skirt, just like the CMC shooting star followers. When I did the same experiment you have just preformed using the CMC mag and follower I had the same bench results - a 7 rounds flush fit mag for my P45 that cycled and activated the slide stop. However, when I went to the range, the slide would NOT lock back, and after 6 or 7 magazines of shooting I noticed the bottom / front portion of the follower had been slamming into the bottom of the feed ramp, deforming it.

I have decided that any modified mag needs to have a follower that cannot move forward under recoil (i.e. full skirted magazine follower).

[Bawanna]

Here's my RANGE TEST:

I took the CMC Match grade officers 7 round flush fit mag I altered to the range today. Unlike my bench test, it failed to lock back the slide on the last round, it functioned flawlessly otherwise.

When I returned from the range, I took the CMC mag apart and noticed that the bottom tab that activates the slide stop, was all chewed up on the tip where it had been hitting the bottom edge of the feed ramp. Not acceptable.

I have exchanged some information with someone on the boards here, who told me that they use stock Wilson 47D mags in his PM45 without a problem. So while I was at the range with my friend, I borrowed one of his Wilson magazines. It slid in and locked into place without problem, it even clears the bottom of the slide (no grinding required). However, it would not lock back the slide either, not even on the bench, and when I loaded them to shoot, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds jammed every time. The loaded round would pop up and drive the nose of the bullet into the top of the chamber and lock up the gun. After that, it functioned fine (except for no lock back).

Seven rounds would be great, but flush fit is the goal, so I may look back to the beginning of the thread and try what the OP had done.
Or I may be sticking with stock Kahr magazines until someone smarter than me gets this thing figured out.

On the good side, other than the mag experimental issues, the gun ran great, this thing is a real shooter. And the A-Grip makes it into a new gun, absolutely, incredibly comfortable and controllable.

Ok, I'll stand before the world and fess up to being the culprit you exchanged info with. I'm totally blown over with your results. I used 4 different Wilson mags, used interchangeably with my Para and my PM45. I ran the whole 8 rounds without a hiccup and the slide locked open probably 9 times on empty and failed once. Other than that, I had no issues. I haven't tried my officer model size Wilson mags but I honestly gotta believe they will give the same results. I'm glad you didn't buy a Wilson mag just to have it not work. I would have felt real bad about that. I'll try to remember to try my officer size mags next trip and see how they run.

[wyntrout]

I included pix of the follower and mated spring from the COM6. The springs must be designed to hold the followers in place. All of the different mag springs were mated to their individual followers. If the spring fills the tube from front to back, it can hold the follower in place, if designed correctly. The COM6 spring/follower seems pretty stable, but I haven't range tested it.
It takes a combination of that and something that will work with the Kahr magazine lips. It's a PITA trying out all of the combos I did with the welded base tube.
Wynn

[gb6491]

It's funny, when I put the Kahr spring and follower in my modified CMC mag, it only holds 5 rounds.
-Zero-

I wonder at the dynamics of that. I have no problem getting six into a modified Metalform Officer's magazine using a Kahr follower and Kahr spring.
YouTube - Kahr CW45: flush fit, six round magazine.
What is so different in the CMC mag body that would prevent it from doing the same? Could it be the follower didn't properly seat on the spring? I'd really like to know what is going on with this.
FWIW: I just tried a different Kahr follower and spring (from an OEM seven round magazine) in my modified magazine and again had no problem loading six in it.

Have you guys looked into the Check-Mate patented follower? Unlike the MCC is has a front shroud that keeps it from sliding forward and hitting the ramp.

Thanks for that info OldLincoln. I think I need to try one of those followers

Wynn,
That's sure some experiment you have going on there. I look forward to reading your range report.

Regards to all,
Greg

[Mr. Zero]

Ok, I'll stand before the world and fess up to being the culprit you exchanged info with. I'm totally blown over with your results. I used 4 different Wilson mags, used interchangeably with my Para and my PM45. I ran the whole 8 rounds without a hiccup and the slide locked open probably 9 times on empty and failed once. Other than that, I had no issues. I haven't tried my officer model size Wilson mags but I honestly gotta believe they will give the same results. I'm glad you didn't buy a Wilson mag just to have it not work. I would have felt real bad about that. I'll try to remember to try my officer size mags next trip and see how they run.

Just for the record, the Wilson I tried was an 8 round version for a full size 1911. I am not sure how old it was, it may have a different follower design than the ones you have. I am tempted to order one just for grins, I guess I could use it in my 1911 if it did not work. I would even be willing to pay the shipping to try one of yours that you have already tested ........ well, if you knew me better maybe........

-Zero-

[Mr. Zero]

I wonder at the dynamics of that. I have no problem getting six into a modified Metalform Officer's magazine using a Kahr follower and Kahr spring.
YouTube - Kahr CW45: flush fit, six round magazine.
What is so different in the CMC mag body that would prevent it from doing the same? Could it be the follower didn't properly seat on the spring? I'd really like to know what is going on with this.


Regards to all,
Greg

Greg,

You were right to question the spring seating to the follower, I tried it again ane SHAZAM! 6 rounds fit just fine, even when I loaded a round and topped it off.

This is my answer for a flush fit magazine, I have tested it for function (feed lip geometry) so now its just the formality of range testing it for lock back and proper function with the stock follower.

****************************************

This whole thing has been keeping me up nights and I think I have discovered some answers:

The stock Kahr 6 round spring has 14 coils. These coils fit BETWEEN the front and rear follower skirt when compressed, they do not fit the tube tight front to back. The CMC mag, and probably the Colt mag as well, have 9 coils, but they are larger and fit tighter in the tube front to back. Not TIGHT, but they are big enough front to back that they do not fit between the plastic skirted follower legs.

It is not the skirt length that is causing the capacity to be low, it is the spring requirements of a plastic skirted magazine follower that are the limiting factor. More coils equal a taller spring stack when compressed, thus taking up more vertical space in the magazine tube. If you insert a stock Kahr follower into a flush fitting magazine tube without a spring, you can then insert 7 rounds on top of that follower with room to spare between the top round and the feed lips.

Therefore, it is my hypothesis that a skirted follower like the metalform steel version holds out the most hope of finding a combination that will fit flush AND hold seven rounds. The metal skirt material should be thinner than the plastic types allowing a 9 coil spring to be used and still fit up inside the skirt legs. A 9 coil spring would lesson the spring stack height when compressed and allowing 7 rounds to be loaded into the flush fitting tube.

I would love to try the combo of a Metalform steel skirted follower and a CMC or Colt 7 round spring and tube to see if it would give us what we want.
The other advantage of the Metalform metal follower (other than the skirted design) is the ability to dimple punch the metal flap that activates the slide stop if you need more hight to activate it.

Where getting close boys......

-Zero-

[wyntrout]

The Wilson Kit adds capacity to the right tube.

Coil size is THE biggy, plus the correct mating to the follower:

http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistol...html#post36970

Wynn

[Bawanna]

Just for the record, the Wilson I tried was an 8 round version for a full size 1911. I am not sure how old it was, it may have a different follower design than the ones you have. I am tempted to order one just for grins, I guess I could use it in my 1911 if it did not work. I would even be willing to pay the shipping to try one of yours that you have already tested ........ well, if you knew me better maybe........

-Zero-

Thats what I was using a 8rd Wilson. I got no problem sending you down one if you want. Maybe I should try the officer model size since that is closer to what your looking for and if it works I'll send that one down. Now I gotta get out and try them again to make sure I wasn't dreaming but it was so real and life like. Even my son asked how in the heck those same mags could work in both guns.
I appears you might be onto a successful solution too.

[Mr. Zero]

Thats what I was using a 8rd Wilson. I got no problem sending you down one if you want. Maybe I should try the officer model size since that is closer to what your looking for and if it works I'll send that one down. Now I gotta get out and try them again to make sure I wasn't dreaming but it was so real and life like. Even my son asked how in the heck those same mags could work in both guns.
I appears you might be onto a successful solution too.

Thanks Bawanna, if you do a range test and find out that is wasn't a dream, let me know and we can discuss it.

-Zero-

[wyntrout]

More info and better pictures on the Wilson Combat Conversion Kit 8rd. Gov't or 7rd. COM:

http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistol...html#post37035

You can read the text and count the coils, etc.

Wynn

[wyntrout]

I finally posted the results of my latest range trip and magazine test:

http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistol...html#post37182

Wynn

[Indigo]

Has anyone tried cutting off a coil one at a time from a Kahr spring/follower in the Mccormick mag? I'm sitting with the stuff in front of me but didn't want to destroy spring if it had been tried already

[wyntrout]

I don't have the McCormick mag to play with, but I would be leery of cutting any coils off a Kahr spring... you usually need more power to actuate the slide lock.

I mentioned trying that on my Colt Officers Model follower and spring in a Kahr 5-round mag, because I was stuffing 6 rounds in there and didn't think I need quite all of the spring, but not having any spare springs, I don't want to experiment like that. So I haven't and I don't know what you're looking to do. I just thought I would say something until someone else comes along who knows something about that... for what it's worth.
I'm hoping that Wolff will start supplying aftermarket springs for the P380 and the PM45. They have done so with the 9mm and 40 S&W... cheaper prices and faster service when you're looking to get one or several.

Wynn

[gb6491]

FWIW, CDNN has the Metalform Officer's magazine I used on sale for $9.99
It's on page 87 of their current catalog (viewable here: CDNN Sports, Inc. ).

As an update, my flush fit magazine has continued to perform without incident. I'm completely satisfied with it and use it as my primary magazine with Kahr OEM mags as reloads.

I also have one of the Check-Mate patented follower magazines that OldLincoln mentioned. It is indeed a captive metal follower. I haven't done any experimenting with it and probably won't; it's a very nice magazine and I plan to use it in my OACP.
Regards,
Greg