I'm Concerned About Quality

[Markis82]

Funny, you seem to be in the minority in both points. First I'd like to say that I'm a Glock owner and love them. But you must be the person Glock designed their grip to. The biggest aftermarket modification done to Glocks beside changing the sights must be grip modification. There are many companies who specialize in it. There are at least 3 different grip mods out there. Finger bumps removal, front strap reduction, blackstrap reduction, etc... To say it fits your hand well is unusual. Also, most say that Kahrs fit their hand perfectly. Again I'll stress that Kahrs are no more unreliable than Glocks. However, you must go with what makes you confident.

[O'Dell]

I just got back from my LGS. I went there to rent a Glock 26 and a PM9. The Glock 26 was very nice and fit my had well. It was accurate at the range and I was pleased with its and my performance. The Kahr PM9 was a different story. When I held it I was suprised how light it was but at the same time it didn't fit my hand as well as the Glock. I also was unable to fire it as the rental unit was out for repair. The helpful woman at my LGS seemed frustrated when she said it just needed a spring but they couldn't get any parts - it always has to be sent out. Now I know you're thinking rental guns are used and abused and that's probably true but it still has to be sent back to Kahr. If this happens to me a couple / few times do I need a backup gun for when it decides to fail or just needs routine maintenance? When I asked her when she thought it would be back she said "she had no idea - it's been out for a while". It seems my LGS has made my previous point for me. I do not want a gun that's not reliable or available (sent back home for repair). Glock has won this one. I still do appreciate everyone's input and advice here - I just have one more question - Given my situation what would you do?

Since you ask, I'll answer, but this is strictly my opinion and worth exact what you paid for it. If the Glock works for you, buy it. They don't work for me. I have shot my son's Glocks many times, and the only one that I can get my fingers around is a 36. Even that one does not point well for me, and consequently, I don't shoot Glocks well. None of the many pistols I've owned from a Browning HP in 1966 to the latest Kahr MK40 in February has caused me this problem. BTW, this has labeled me a Glock hater, but I don't hate them, I just can't shoot them. So, as I said, if it fits you, by all means get it.

As for Kahr CS, I mentioned I have had seven over the last five or six years. None has gone back for any malfunction, but I did have a cosmetic problem on my PM45. I bought the gun used and it had a deep scratch on the slide. I called Kahr thinking I needed to buy a new slide. They said send it back and they'd see what could be done. They paid shipping and got the gun back to me in about a week with a new slide, recoil assy, and a polished feed ramp. All was handled under warranty. This was about four years ago, and I don't know what would happen today under the same circumstances.

[ilmbaba]

What would I do if I were you? I bought a Glock 36 (about the same size as the 26). I have 2 other Glocks, a 20SF and a 21SF, but I just didn't like the way the 36 felt. Add to that the fact that I came across several complaints about the 36, and I ended up trading it out before I ever fired a shot. I bought the CM40, the inexpensive version of the PM40 (equivalent to the PM9). I went with the CM40 because it has standard rifling and I can shoot lead cast reloads through it (can't do that with the PM series, or the Glocks for that matter).
I was looking for a pocket carry gun, and the G36 was way to big for that. The CM40 is just right, and I opted for 1 less round in 40 S&W instead of the 9MM because of the added punch.
I took it out and it was great. Like what happened to Dore, my magazine follower broke on my first 5 shots. I didn't even realize it, except I had to adjust the follower to load the magazine each time. I went through 75 rounds in that session, and when I took the magazine apart afterwards to see what was happening, the follower came out in a few pieces.
I had read several negative things about Kahrs, but I had also read that alot of the initial problems were from people who didn't follow the prepping procedures posted on this forum. I followed them, and had no issues (except the follower). I heard that a broken follower is a somewhat common problem specific to the 40s, due in large part to what was probably a faulty manufacturing run. Everyone who replaced them said they did not have a repeat of the problem. Additionally, it seems that Kahr did a nice job of sending an extra follower, or an extra magazine at no charge.
I called them up, and they sent me an e-mail with a link to a pre-paid label. I sent it back 2 weeks ago, and it is scheduled to be delivered on Monday (of course, I'm out of town). I could have opted for them to just send me a new follower, and there are folks that have done that, but they offered to bring it back at no charge just so they could give it a once-over and make sure nothing was out of alignment.
I was unsure of how I felt about this, but after dealing with Kahr's CS, I went out and bought a CW45 (the Kahr I was originally looking at). I have read a few stories of problems with them too, and more great recovery stories about Customer Service. Overall, I thought it was a safe bet that if something did go sideways, Kahr would make it right.
You have to do what's right for you, and if you like the Glock more than the Kahr, it seems to be more of a case of "Who cares what anyone else would do." I love the Glocks I have. The sub-compacts are not very sub, and I believe I did the right thing ditching the G36 for the CM40. the CM40 will be my EDC after I finish the break-in. I did not have any of the operational issues you most commonly read about.
Honestly, if your LGS has had bad luck with Kahr repairs, you might want to ask them if they shipped it to Kahr or somewhere else. I find it hard to believe that Kahr would take an inordinate amount of time repairing a gun for a LGS that sells the Kahr line.
I'm hoping Kahr's next release will be a CM version of the PM45, because I would buy one.

[Russ]

I'm new to this thread and am / was considering a PM9. I was hoping to join this forum to learn how good the Kahrs really are. Instead I am hearing the exact same thing that's all over the internet. They are great guns - when they work. That may be okay for a range run but if I'm going to bet my life on a gun I need it to be 100% reliable. Please explain why I'm wrong as I really want to like (and buy) a PM9. The size, weight and accuracy is impressive but the G26 is looking better and better. These guns are quite expensive I don't feel I should have to send it back to Kahr several times to maybe end up with a good (reliable) gun. Plus there are stories in this forum where the shipping to Kahr is at the owners expense - further increasing the cost of the gun. Where is quality control? Help.

Paul

I am a simple guy and I am not interested in tinkering and fine tuning my conceal gun to ensure it goes bang with any type of ammo.

I have owned a Kahr CM9 and a Beretta Nano but honestly I just got tired of problem solving.

If you want a gun you can still pocket conceal that will fire everytime even if you don't clean it the S&W Shield is the weapon. It is about the size of a Glock 26 only in a single stack less than an inch wide.

It will probably end up as gun of the year which means you will need to get on a waiting list.

The price range is $399 to $449.

Russ

[Markis82]

Mr Shield went from Mr kahr to Mr Nano to now, Mr Shield. He seems to swoon after his lastest decision then drop it like a hot potato. As soon as that Shield hiccups who knows who he will be next. All semi's models (maybe not a individual gun) have an issue now and again. Go look at any forum. Even revolvers have an issue now and again. Russ got a Kahr that had an issue and a Nano that had an issue. Many people get either one and have no issues. Russ also got a Shield that has not had an issue yet. Many people get one that has an issue and they would say that they couldn't trust it. It proves nothing! Perfection does not exist. Both the Nano and the Shield designs are too new. All the bugs have not yet been discovered in either weapon. Kahr's pistol designs are tried and true. Proven to be a winner. Again, that Shield has a manual safety, a NEVER for me in my DAO carry weapon.

[Russ]

Paul:

You have some valid questions when it comes to quality and reliability especially when we are talking a ccw.

You can learn much if you visit multiple forums and read what owners are saying.

The Shield is an M&P which is not a new or unproven design.
If you fall in love with a Kahr go for it.

I am not a fly by the pants person that drops a gun with the first failure.
I shot 2 cases of ammo through the Kahr and Nano collectively and spent a lot of time on this forum and Beretta picking the minds of everyone.

I read a lot and crunched numbers trying to find the most reliable gun and in my search one statistic that I could not ignore was a post on the M&P forum where one observer noted 40 Shield owners collectively shot nearly 10,000 rounds with zero failures.

What I find impressive about that obsrevation is the fact we have 40 different shooters from all walks of life using a random mix of ammo with an average of 250 rounds fired each and not one failure.

Imagine you are in a college class with 40 people and you all take a 250 question exam and everyone scores 100%. (In my school days I personally never experienced such an outcome which makes the Shield in my opinion a very unique firearm.)

Good Luck,

Russ

[Markis82]

We all know the 1911 is a proven design. However, when they shrink it down to a 3" barrel all kinds of changes must occur. Therefore it is "new" design. The 3" 1911 has proven to be MUCH more problematic than the origional. Much the same way a 3" 1911 is a new design, the Shield is a new design. I'm sure you can ask 40 CM9 owners and find relieability. I am one. Thousands of rounds through my CM9 and not one failure, stove pipe, FTE, FTF or a hiccup of any kind. Or ask different 40 Shield owners and find failure. There are "lies, damn lies, and statistics." ~ Mark Twain among others. Furthermore, the Shield has not been around long enough to have enough data to make any conclusions. Best to stay with a design that was built from the ground up as a "pocket sized" gun. Rather than a gun that was redesigned to fit a popular market. If you buy say a BMW and the starter dies. You wouldn't say that all BMW's have problems. You wouldn't swear off BMW's, trade the car in and get an Audi. You have it fixed and move on. Yes, there are other people whose starter didn't die, who own different cars. However, their car isn't "just better." I'm sure some Wison, Les Baer, and Nighthawks have had some failures too. When you buy anything from a dishwasher to a gun, you are taking a chance.

[Russ]

Mark

I agree there are good guns and bad guns from every maker.

What I like about these gun forums over gun magazines is you get an honest assessment of a gun by an average Joe. Magazines live and die on advertising. You can't expect an honest report.

However on gun forums we have nothing to gain by sharing our real life experiences.

What am I going to gain if Paul buys a Kahr or a Shield?

I am just sharing my real life experience just like you and for me so far the Shield has been more reliable shooting the same number of rounds. If the Shield down the road decides to suddenly stop being reliable I am not too proud to look for a better mouse trap.

Thanks for your comments I really learn a lot on this forum and I appreciate different opinions
Russ

[Markis82]

Yes, I agree. We give opinions based on our experiences. Sometimes we fall into the trap of transposing our own personal experience on to the whole (because mine then all...). Because we experience something, really is not representative of the whole. We must understand our experience is just a micro amount of the picture.

[JrFreak]

I have a PM9 and never have had an issue with it.

[sharpenit]

I'm new to this thread and am / was considering a PM9. I was hoping to join this forum to learn how good the Kahrs really are. Instead I am hearing the exact same thing that's all over the internet. They are great guns - when they work. That may be okay for a range run but if I'm going to bet my life on a gun I need it to be 100% reliable. Please explain why I'm wrong as I really want to like (and buy) a PM9. The size, weight and accuracy is impressive but the G26 is looking better and better. These guns are quite expensive I don't feel I should have to send it back to Kahr several times to maybe end up with a good (reliable) gun. Plus there are stories in this forum where the shipping to Kahr is at the owners expense - further increasing the cost of the gun. Where is quality control? Help.

I had problems with my CM9 right out of the box. But Kahr customer service sent me a new recoil spring for free, and after about 450 rounds, the pistol began to work perfectly. I've put another 1,200 rounds through it since then without a problem and it is my EDC carry gun.

I now trust this particular CM9, but would I buy another Kahr, knowing that I might have to go through all that stress and worry again, not to mention expending nine boxes of ammo before it worked right? I'm not sure.

[GunJunkie]

I recently traded my MK9 for a CM9. I've had the MK9 since 1996 and shot it a bunch. Had a problem with the slide stop spring when it was new, but Kahr helped me resolve it and it was 100% afterwards. It was just heavy for it's size, and the attractive price and reputation of the CM9 led me to try one.
I do not regret my decision to replace the MK9 with the CM9. I can use my extra magazine and DeSantis holster and it is every bit as 'shootable' and accurate as the MK9.
I'm quite satisfied after about 200 rounds with many more to go.

[hammerclaw56]

Rest assured that it's possible to have problems with anything man makes ,but these are some of the most reliable handguns available,I have a pm9 DLC that has around a thousand rounds throught her without the first problem of any kind .And that's with all types of ammo, Kahrs can't be beat for size and quality.

[ParabellumJ]

I own both a Glock and Kahr. Before I bought the Glock I researched and shot just about every 9mm polymer service pistol available with a 4" (or close to) barrel. What I found in my research was countless complaints of problems with the Gen 4 G19. I'm sure you are all aware of Glocks problems with the new Gen 4 recoil springs. Many people suggested a Gen 3 but they didn't fit my hand at all. The reduction in the gen 4 grip is what made it work for me. By this time Glock had all ready issued a third version of the new recoil spring, and I shot 3 different ones and various ranges and not had an issue with any of them. Despite all of the countless complaints with the Gen 4 Glocks, I bought one. I now have close to 4,000 rounds through it and have had not one single issue. I also am on my second Kahr, a PM9 that replaced a CM9. Both without a single misfire in 1,500 rounds between the 2. My PM9 did break a follower during break-in, and Kahr did an excellent job in resolving the issue at no expense to me.

My point here is this...No matter what gun you are researching on the internet you will find forums and videos and articles reporting problems. If you go by others negative experiences rather than judge for yourself you wont ever find a gun you believe is reliable. Would I buy another Glock? Absolutely, I believe they are as reliable as any gun out there. Would I buy another Kahr? Without hesitation. I also believe they are as reliable as any other gun out there. Would I trust my life to either? I do every day. If you shoot the Glock well, I would never not recommend anyone buy one. But don't judge kahrs based on reading reports of problems, and certainly don't judge them based on a range guns service record. My experience with Kahr has been fantastic. In fact I would like to find a NYPD K9 that I can make into a project gun.

[jocko]

a shame alot of people don't go into a gun buy with ur attitude to.Issues happen, just that some just cannot handle it, but maybe accept it with new car or refrigerator or..what ever..