Ammunition

[Will]

I'm sure this subject has been touched on a million times but a quick question. I have the PM9 and just finishing up the break in.... I am looking to carry the Remington (R9MM6) which is rated approx. 1250fps or maybe the Cor Bon (SD09115-20) JHP rated at approx. 1350fps. Both are +P rounds.... Do you think that the polymer frame will handle the +P loads?

[at_liberty]

Steichers carries the Speer Gold Dot Duty 9mm in 147gr JHP. That will be the heaviest bullet available. Even the hottest loads are subsonic (<1125 fps) and easier on your hearing in unplanned situations. Much of that bang is a sonic boom, the absence of which can make a .45 subtly more pleasant to shoot. The .40 is hotter and runs over 1125.

The short barrels like the PM9 don't likely reach full rated muzzle velocity.

We pretty well showed in the bowling pin matches using 9mm in the minor caliber class that the heavy bullets have better knock down power by quite a lot. That would mean slow and heavy is better than fast and light.

At the opposite end of the scale is the guy with the S&W 500 who spends $3.00 every time he pulls the trigger and destroys a bowling pin, sending it flying, even without a strong hit. He would cut a man in half.

[Michael W.]

I'm sure this subject has been touched on a million times but a quick question. I have the PM9 and just finishing up the break in.... I am looking to carry the Remington (R9MM6) which is rated approx. 1250fps or maybe the Cor Bon (SD09115-20) JHP rated at approx. 1350fps. Both are +P rounds.... Do you think that the polymer frame will handle the +P loads?

The frame will have no problem with either of those rounds although between
the two I'd favor the CorBon. This round reaches +P+ speeds but at +P
pressures and has excellent street cred. I would add the proviso that this
assumes you won't be shooting a steady diet of +P through the PM9 (even if
you could afford it).

Having said that, my personal choice for my PM9 carry load is the 147gr
Federal HST. This particular 9mm load has pretty spectacular expansion
characteristics without giving up penetration. The theory behind using light,
fast loads like the Corbon in a short barrel is to "make up" for velocity lost due
to the short barrel. The theory behind avoiding slower heavier loads in a short
barrel gun is that because if you bleed off the already subsonic speeds you'll
lose the velocity required for expansion. This makes sense.......on paper.

In reality the opposite has proven to be true. In short barrel guns, slower
loads actually lose LESS velocity as compared with longer barrels and faster
load lose proportionally MORE velocity in a shorter barrel. This is proven in
chronographed tests.

The reason is because in the slower load, because the bullet is travelling
slower there is more "dwell" time in the barrel and the powder is more
efficiently burned in the chamber and barrel where as on faster loads a good
part of the powder burns outside the barrel after the bullet has already exited
where it does no good. So the end result is that the modern 147gr bullets
designed with a much wider expansion velocity envelope than early 147gr
offerings may actually expand more reliably with adequate penetration than
the +P loadings. And they do it at standard pressures and muzzle blast.

Here's a link to a thread that discusses this. Note the chrono chart
in particular and the explanation by Paul Nowak of Winchester.

9mm 147gr and Short Barrels - M4Carbine.net Forums

Just some food for thought.

Michael-

[Will]

Thanks guys for your responses.... I see that ya'll like the 147gr... Michale W. great info in your post... I'm going to look into 147gr bullets now. I have heard good things about the Hornady Critical Defense although its 115gr again.... What do you think?

[Michael W.]

Thanks guys for your responses.... I see that ya'll like the 147gr... Michale W. great info in your post... I'm going to look into 147gr bullets now. I have heard good things about the Hornady Critical Defense although its 115gr again.... What do you think?

The Hornady CD is a specialized round that relies on bullet
technology to ensure expansion. However, understand that you
are trading that expansion for penetration.

Hornady openly admits that the performance goal for the CD
series is not to try to develop a load that will meet the FBI penetration
standards both in terms of penetration and ability to defeat barriers.

This philosophy is not necessarily a bad one as it's hard to make a case
for civilian CCW to need a round that will perform to the FBI's standard
to penetrate car doors and windshields and still have terminal effectiveness.
However, I'm not completely convinced that the average penetration I've
seen in the CD calibers of ~10" is adequate.

As long as you understand the trade off's to be able to make as an informed
choice as possible.

It goes without saying that all this discussion about 9mm loads, brands,
bullet designs etc come secondary....and I do mean a WAY back secondary
to a) shot placement and b) feeding reliabilty in your particular gun.

If you can't hit the target or the round won't feed, it doesn't matter HOW well
the round is theoretically projected to perform.

Michael-

[wyntrout]

Here are some PM9 ammo tests with velocities.
GUNS Magazine July 2010
Wynn

[at_liberty]

Thanks guys for your responses.... I see that ya'll like the 147gr... Michale W. great info in your post... I'm going to look into 147gr bullets now. I have heard good things about the Hornady Critical Defense although its 115gr again.... What do you think?

Well, what is the answer you wanted? Do what you want to. You seem to be ignoring what was offered by going with 115gr. Pick the one with the prettiest box, most bling bullet, or most advertising and then find someone who will say it's wonderful. If Hornady offers it, obviously someone thinks it is a good choice. It is hard to be wrong with this. We are talking degrees and preferences, some of which could be critical differences when it really matters. It's hard to know.

The key statement Michael offered is - "In short barrel guns, slower loads actually lose LESS velocity as compared with longer barrels and faster load lose proportionally MORE velocity in a shorter barrel. This is proven in chronographed tests."

That means light bullets with hot loads are not as effective in short barreled guns, and the PM9 is certainly in that group. You would also be offering more muzzle flash as a target in the dark. You would be standing right behind it saying "shoot me!". Too dramatic maybe, but something to consider.

Here is an article in Guns&Ammo/Handguns magazine that covers the Hornady TAP FPD 147gr XTP/JHP cartridge.

[jlottmc]

Personally I tend to stay with the heavier side for a caliber. I'm not much of a fan of the 9mm, but my 40 is loaded with 180 gr Winchester Ranger's, my 1911 is loaded with 230gr Remington/Winchester HP's, my P345 is loaded with the same HP's as the 1911, the reloads are 165 gr Magtech SCHP's with a +P rating, my P45 is full of those same 165 gr SCHP's, and my GP100 is loaded light with 110 gr semi-jacketed hollow points. I chose the lighter load in the 357 due to it's legendary penetration capability, and frankly in an urban envrionment, don't want or need that kind hole making ability. The Magtech's I might replace, but may leave them alone as I was thinking that may be the only way to get a half way decent velocity and expansion out of my little P45. Other than that, my rifles and such are always on the heavy side. An interesting aside is the fact that most gun makers regulate their sights for the oldest/heaviest/cheapest load available. Just my thoughts.

[Will]

Thanks guys for all of your input..... Everybody made good points and I will consider them all. I have alot of information to sift through now. With that said I am leaning toward the heavier grains instead of looking for velocity. Need to find one now that will feed reliably through the PM9..... Thanks again

[Swat_dude]

Not to muddy the waters, but there are others (not me) that say the 147 grain 9mm round is the worst performing 9mm ever produced and to stear clear of it. I think if you shop around the internet you can find someone advocating or bashing just about every caliber and bullet type out there.

I personally like the 124 grain Gold Dot +P but I haven't gotten my PM9 back from Robar yet to test the function of this round with my new gun.

While some in the M4 thread say that the heavier bullets recoil less, that has definitely not been my experience. It still always boils down to personal preference I guess.

[at_liberty]

Not to muddy the waters, but there are others (not me) that say the 147 grain 9mm round is the worst performing 9mm ever produced and to stear clear of it. I think if you shop around the internet you can find someone advocating or bashing just about every caliber and bullet type out there.

I personally like the 124 grain Gold Dot +P but I haven't gotten my PM9 back from Robar yet to test the function of this round with my new gun.

While some in the M4 thread say that the heavier bullets recoil less, that has definitely not been my experience. It still always boils down to personal preference I guess.

Can you cite a reference for undermining confidence in the 147gr ammo?

[G26ster]

Based on reviews and comments in many forums, I picked up some Glaser Pow'RBall +P, 100gr, 1475fps ammo to run thru my PM9. Be interested in anyone's comments as to any feeding or other issues they may have had with Pow'rBall in their PM9, or comments in general.

[deadhead1971]

A couple comments....

--Shot lots of 115 and some 124 grain fmj ammo...no problems
--Shot 100 rds of 147 grain cheap winchester personal defense hollow points...no problems, more recoil than 115 or 124 grains
--Shot 6 rds of 100 grain +P Powr' Ball...more recoil than 115 fmj..very dirty for crimson trace laser lens and no problems
--Shot 6 rds of 124 grain +P Gold Dots...recoil felt like 115 grain fmj (powr' ball had a lot more recoil than this) and no problems

[Michael W.]

Not to muddy the waters, but there are others (not me) that say the 147 grain 9mm round is the worst performing 9mm ever produced and to stear clear of it. I think if you shop around the internet you can find someone advocating or bashing just about every caliber and bullet type out there.

I personally like the 124 grain Gold Dot +P but I haven't gotten my PM9 back from Robar yet to test the function of this round with my new gun.

While some in the M4 thread say that the heavier bullets recoil less, that has definitely not been my experience. It still always boils down to personal preference I guess.

Not muddied and still a good topic to kick around even if some online caliber
warriors may think that it's been discussed ad nauseum.

One of the reasons the 147gr 9mm variant generates so much controversy
is that it has indeed had a checkered past and has had some spectacular
failures, particularly the 147gr Federal HydraShok. But if you dig a little deeper
most of the "data" where it exists is decades old.

The problem was that it was slow to the point that the bullets wouldn't
expand reliably and wind up over penetrating (and failing to stop).
To really understand the whole history you probably need to go
back the infamous 1986 FBI Shootout where the 115gr Silvertip failed
to perform miserably...but thats a different topic.

Bullet technology has come a long way in the past 20 years and the recent
crop of premium rounds such as the Federal HST, Winchester Ranger-T,
Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot are all engineered to expand reliably at
subsonic speeds and have proven to do so both against gelatin based life
forms as well as on the street.

The advent of the 'tweener grained weights (124,125,127) was splitting
the difference between the slow/heavy Facklerites and the light/fast
Marshall/Sanowites and has also proven to be an excellent performer
especially when pushed to +P speeds. My favorite load is the Ranger-T
127gr +P+ in my Glock 19's.

However, in the context of this discussion we're talking about the very light
and very small PM9. I can shoot the powerhouse loads in my PM9 but
there's no denying that standard pressure loads allow for faster follow
up shots. So then the question becomes what is the best standard pressure
load for the PM9. I'd feel very well equipped with any of the 124 gr standard
pressure rounds mentioned above but from the performance results that
I've seen the 147gr edges them out by having similar expansion with better
penetration. My other candidate that I tested for my PM9 was the
Gold Dot 124gr +P and it will be my back up load should I ever blow
through my stash of 147gr HST's holding off the zombie hoards

So, yes, you can find a lot of opinions lambasting the 147gr 9mm
but look at the sources (when available) and the dates and the generation
of bullet designs involved. If you're still uncomfortable with it then there
are plenty of excellent 124gr loadings and 115gr loadings available.

As always, all the above assumes the proviso that
a) you can shoot well enough to hit your target
b) you have proven your selected load will feed/function in your gun

Michael-

Disclamer: I am not a ballistics expert......but like everyone else
I pretend to be on one the internet....

[Bawanna]

Disclamer: I am not a ballistics expert......but like everyone else
I pretend to be on one the internet....

Nice disclaimer, if you were an expert you'd carry your PM45 all the time and leave the mouse gun at home. Oh yeah, that's what you do now. We're good.