Ammo question

[jg rider]

This has been asked numerous times, and I haven't heard of anything better. We run these in two PM9's and two K9's
Tests I ran with standard velocity, after seeing results into ballistic gelatin

[jg rider]

Oh ! Sorry I just noticed you wanted info on 124 gr.
Here's what I've got

[boscobarbell]

How does Wet Pack compare to ballistic gel in term of penetration?

[jg rider]

How does Wet Pack compare to ballistic gel in term of penetration?

Hi, I did a bunch of research and had a bunch doubts about using wet packs as a comparison for ballistic gelatin. The best I could find was to use news paper but take out all colored print pages because of the paper texture. Then to soak it for 24 hrs. My wet packs were 24" thick and placed into card board boxes for stability

After seeing some online ballistic results conducted by Federal's parent company ATI IIRC at different police agencies in my area against other brands, shooting into gelatin, wallboard, car doors, windshields. AFAIK those test results are now off the web. I started to think that my wet packs were a close comparison for expansion.

Then I read to get the true penetration numbers, you had to multiply by 3 and divide by 2

Then the best I could do for a test into flesh was into a freshly killed steer that was going to be butchered. Penetration with the 147 gr. HST was on par with what the FBI new standards of 14" after the 1986 Dade county FBI shootout in Florida. I had no interest in the 124grs.

Remember my tests were done with a 3" barrel PM9 not a duty gun.

[jg rider]

Oh ! Here's some of the stuff I tested plus Speer Gold Dots, Remington stuff,etc. The other criteria was for fast on target additional shots, using the wife as the tester since she carries every day. I also ran the same tests for our K9's
The results were, the Win. 147 RA9T for the PM9's because of it's softest felt recoil, and Fed. 147 HST for the K9's

[berettabone]

Great info..............................after more shooting, I'm down to 115 gr. Critical Defense, and 147 gr. Hst's in my Kahr. For my .40 cals., I use the 180 gr. Fed Hydroshocks for now.

[jg rider]

Great info..............................after more shooting, I'm down to 115 gr. Critical Defense, and 147 gr. Hst's in my Kahr. For my .40 cals., I use the 180 gr. Fed Hydroshocks for now.

Thanks. I tried to enter a text copy of what were my total findings of all the brands we tested, I believe there were about 9-11. But they were more letters then what are allowed here.

So to make it short, remember you're using a 3" barrel that at times IMHO can't generate enough velocity to create expansion. Example was the look alike black talons shown or some fed. stuff or some rem. stuff. They went all the way the way through the wet packs, and when I tried to see if there was any expansion in the holes, it didn't look like the was any. But when I fired these same rounds out of 4 1/2" Glock 17 they expanded. Testing these same rounds out of a 3 1/2" K9 the results were almost the same as out of the PM9.

I'm not a believer in +P ammo, I think it's over kill for civilians that don't have to deal with barriers. We're not going to go into harms way, but away from it.

Here some test results out of a .38 again without +P ammo. A long time ago we used 148 gr. Hornday HBWC seated with the hollow base seated out with ----- of unique powder for 850 fps that gave almost the same results

[boscobarbell]

Hi, I did a bunch of research and had a bunch doubts about using wet packs as a comparison for ballistic gelatin. The best I could find was to use news paper but take out all colored print pages because of the paper texture. Then to soak it for 24 hrs. My wet packs were 24" thick and placed into card board boxes for stability

After seeing some online ballistic results conducted by Federal's parent company ATI IIRC at different police agencies in my area against other brands, shooting into gelatin, wallboard, car doors, windshields. AFAIK those test results are now off the web. I started to think that my wet packs were a close comparison for expansion.

Then I read to get the true penetration numbers, you had to multiply by 3 and divide by 2

Then the best I could do for a test into flesh was into a freshly killed steer that was going to be butchered. Penetration with the 147 gr. HST was on par with what the FBI new standards of 14" after the 1986 Dade county FBI shootout in Florida. I had no interest in the 124grs.

Remember my tests were done with a 3" barrel PM9 not a duty gun.

Interesting. Thanks.

[jg rider]

I tried to abbreviate this old text to fit

Here's some tests I did sometime back, using Kahr pistols. I did a lot of research on how to build a medium that would almost mirror ballistic gelatin results. Federal had a website (now gone) showing their test results at some PNW law enforcement agencies. Test were shooting thru wall boards, windshields, car doors, 4 layers of denim, etc. As a civilian I was only interested in one criteria.
We have 2 Kahr PM9's for concealed carry for the wife and myself, I started looking for a reliable defense round out of the 3" barrel. We also have Kahr K9's since 1999 that we carry concealed. We've both legally carried concealed since 1981.
After not really finding many bullet comparison test results for 3" & 3 1/2" 9mm Kahr pistols, or for short barreled revolvers, I decided to run my own wet pack tests on ammo that interested me. The tests have 2 criteria, one is a good penetration to expansion ratio, and the second is to find the softest felt recoil for multiple, fast follow up shots for my wife (not me).

Before someone may get on the "practice, practice," soap box, as I've read on some forums, please allow me to say that we have our own 25 yard outdoor pistol range, and she shoots more in 1 month than most people do in 1 year. She practices moving, drawing, and firing out of a fanny pack, or a custom made paddle holster, at single and multiple targets. (I don't need to practice)

These tests are a work in progress as the weather allows and I collect newspaper. What I have in my favor is that I can shoot off of my back deck between downpours.My goal is to test 9mm Kahr PM9 and a K9, a 1 5/8" .38 S&W mod.60, a 2" .38 titanium S&W, a 2 1/2" .357 S&W mod. 66, and a 4 1/4" .45 1911 Colt commander or an Officers Model.

I'll try to make my packs consistent with what I've read from people that seem to know what they're doing.
My procedure will be to put the dry news print into plastic milk crates and then submerse them in a live stock trough for 24 hrs. I'll then lift out the crates and let the water drain out. Then I'll transfer the wet paper into a plastic garbage bag lined cardboard box. On the inside back side of the box I double up on the thickness of the cardboard. I want to allow for flexibility but also for the thicker skin of the human back. Call me obsessive.
Since the winter climate here is mostly mild but wet, I felt that 4 layers of a denim shirt was adequate.

All velocities are measured on a PACT mkIII timer and chronograph.
All recovered diameters are measured at the widest points, and in some cases at two different areas, as explained below.
All penetration measurements are the total of an inserted rod into the bullet hole to the base of the bullet plus the length of the recovered bullet.
The formula to convert wet packs penetration to FBI ballistic gelatin is the displayed penetration number times 3 divided by 2

This first set of tests is out of a PM9. The distance is 10', with a chronograph set up mid way. I fired a maximum 9 shots into each wet pack

The ammo tested were all standard pressure, Fed. 124 Tactical (LE9T1), Fed. 124 HST standard pressure, Fed. 147 HST standard, Win. 147 RA9T and an oldie, Win. 147 ST. All this ammo is labeled Law Enforcement, but can be found.

First is Fed.124 Tactical. What a big disappointment. The bullets all traveled over 1000 fps (1042.0, 1050.9, 1059.6) out of a 3" barrel, and only one expanded (.650"). Don't be fooled by the expansion. If you push back the two protruding petals, the bullet measures.574" When I traced the bullet paths of the other two, I could see that the holes from the over penetration rounds were the same diameter, front to back. There were no attempts at any expansion. I can only conclude that the noses were plugged up.
Federal advertises this round as +p, but the box doesn't say so, and I don't think the advertised 1160 fps velocity is +p.
This round had the most felt recoil. (sharp snap), especially out of a polymer frame.

Next are Federal 124 HST standard pressure. At about the same velocity as the above Federal Tactical, these expanded reliably (.519", .537"). I can remember back to the 70's, early 80's when you'd be lucky to get this kind of expansion. And the penetration was 8 1/2", 9 3/8".
In our opinion the felt recoil was sharp but didn't have the snap to it like the Federal Tactical. Less slide velocity?

Next are standard pressure Federal 147 HST. All I can say is WOW! .599", and .624" expansion from a bullet only traveling at 927.5 and 929.9 fps with a penetration of 8 1/2" and 8 9/16" out of a 3" barrel. I guess that the longer score lines on the side of the bullet help with the expansion. If the penetration formula to convert wet packs to FBI ballistic gelatin standards is accurate, I'd be happy with this round out of a 3" Kahr PM9 in my area's climate.

Next are standard pressure Winchester 147 RA9TA. To me these are a big question mark. First what do I measure for expansion, the widest point from petal tip to petal tip, or the widest part of the main core ? So I measured both. Next these rounds had the lowest velocities (811.5 and 860.3 fps) and the worst velocity spread (48.8 fps) Next when I weighed the recovered bullets, they weighed less than advertised (141.6 gr. and 144.2 gr.) I can see that some lead is missing. But yet with all these flaws these rounds had the best expansion if you measure petal tip to petal tip, and some of the best penetration. I thought that my chrono was off until I started testing with a 3 1/2" Kahr K9, but that's another test.
I really want to like this round but I don't know if the narrow petals with the really sharp tips that do draw blood really do anything in the wound channel.They have the least felt recoil so far.

Next up was an oldie called Winchester Ranger STX Controlled Expansion RA9STX (Black Talon). The expansion is really controlled. It didn't make an attempt to open at all, all the way through the wet pack. There were only two neat round holes through and through. We'll see if they do better out of a K9 just for grins. This was the kind of stuff that gave the 147's a bad reputation.

So here are my final test results.

HIGHEST VEL.
Fed. 124 Tac 1059.6 fps
Fed. 124 HST 1059.3 fps
Fed. 124 HST 1057.9 fps
Fed. 124 Tac 1050.9 fps
Fed. 124 Tac 1042.0 fps
Fed. 147 HST 929.9 fps
Fed. 147 HST 927.5 fps
Win. 147 SXT 863.5 fps
Win. 147 RA9T 860.3 fps
Win. 147 SXT 852.0 fps
Win. 147 RA9T 811.5 fps

DEEPEST PEN.
Fed. 124 HST 9 3/8"
Win. 147 RA9T 8 7/8"
Win. 147 RA9T 8 5/8"
Fed. 147 HST 8 9/16"
Fed. 147 HST 8 1/2"
Fed. 124 HST 8 1/2"
Fed. 124 Tac 8 5/16"


WIDEST DIA.
Win. 147 RA9T .698"
Win. 147 RA9T .676"
Fed 124 Tac .650"
Fed. 147 HST .624"
Fed. 147 HST .599"
Fed. 124 HST .537"
Fed. 147 HST .519"


The next tests will be this same ammo out of a Kahr K9

OK EVERYBODY CAN WAKE UP NOW!

[kwh]

^ I am still awake and greatly appreciate the time and effort that went into the tests. Great job on testing the 3" barrels.

[harrydog]

I appreciate you taking the time to do these tests and look forward to the K9 results.
Did you find much if any difference in felt recoil between the 124 and 147 HST rounds? I have a bunch of 124 stockpiled but have always heard it hat the 147 is better so I may have to start looking for some.

[jg rider]

I appreciate you taking the time to do these tests and look forward to the K9 results.
Did you find much if any difference in felt recoil between the 124 and 147 HST rounds? I have a bunch of 124 stockpiled but have always heard it hat the 147 is better so I may have to start looking for some.

I have no intention of doing a K9 report unless there were some requests for it. The text was written in 2007

As far as the the difference between 124 and 147 felt recoil, these tests were done back in 2007. So I really don't remember how much the difference was. I do remember that the wife was the final judge. There were two determining factors. Our take was that the 124's had a snap to them where the 147's were more of a push, which made for quicker follow up shots. The other thing was the penetration / expansion results.
I really wish I could find some reasonably priced Win. 147 gr. RA9T's. They're around but I'm not gonna pay $39.00 + for a box of 50, where I have a place to buy the 147 HST for $19.00

[harvs12]

Has anyone tried the new 150gr HST? Looking for any feedback....

[CPTKILLER]

Federal HST 124 gr or 147 gr or 150 gr go in my 9mm pistols. Just find which is reliable and accurate for you.

[Ed M]

The 150gr HST Micro shoots really soft out of my CM9. Recoil is almost non-existant. Low/no muzzle flash, and super accurate. Makes follow up shots quick and easy.

Here's a video review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYTd1lNx_TQ