Kahr PM9 Redesign ???

[Riccardo]

Okay guys, time for a fact injection into this discussion.

First, the failure rates discussed here are completely false. It is important to remember that the PM9 is Kahr's number one selling pistol. You can see that reflected on the forum when you look at the most popular tags. The PM9 is always one of the top two. I know from a very reliable source that the return rate on PM9s has been FAR LOWER than .5%. Not FIVE percent, but point FIVE. That includes any possible returns for any reason, including order issues unrelated to the product. We all know that many guns return to manufacturers that have absolutely nothing wrong with them.

Second, the taper on the nose was added at the request of LEA customers, for better holster compatibility. If you wear a holster a bunch, you will know that even slight tapering on the nose of a pistol greatly helps to smooth insertion into the holster.

Third, to make up for the lost slide mass, the slide (and by necessity the barrel) lengths were increased by .1 inch. Very, very little, but important in keeping the mass the same for reliable cycling.

Fourth, no price increase.

Please do not believe everything you read on gun blogs and forums. This stuff gets circulating and becomes much like the telegraph/phone game my daughter plays in Kindergarten. You know, where they sit in a row and the first person tells the second something, then the second passes it to the third, etc. By the time it gets to the end, the story has very little to do with how it started. I would venture to say sometimes the little kids are better at keeping the facts straight than adults on the Internet.

Hope that helps guys!

John

Hi John,

I agree with you...I've spoke with kahr reps and they say lots (the majority) of people send their guns back and Kahr is able to find no discernible problem. And being the great company that they are, they usually polish it up and send it back out. They predict it is a limp wrist, incompatible ammo, improperly loading magazines, etc. But even Kahr will not say .5%. I'm wondering where you got that stat because dealer sales will directly contradict you. Maybe they believe that .5% of the actual guns have problems, with another percentage being magazine problems (uneven feed) and another percent being springs, etc. But "problems" in general..back to the manufacturer for problems real or imagined definitely exceeds .5%. I can tell you that just from what I have seen come back personally, and I hope you will acknowledge that.

But since this is an informational forum, I think to maintain its credibility, we need to be honest about the fact that the Kahr PM9 does have its problems, occassional as they may be. This is one of the reasons for the manufacturer recommended break in period. It is well documented with a simple Google search or even multiple videos on Youtube...for ANYONE to quickly search out. For us to deny this would make Kahrtalk a less reliable source of information.

[Riccardo]

Also the length increase I posted is correct. I cannot say why a person would perceive it as longer, but remember this is not guess work on Kahr's part. The guns are made on computer controlled milling machines. The increase in length is a precise measurement input into the equipment when the components are produced. So if Kahr says .1 inch, they are not guessing.

John

Please look at the pictures which are not mine, but are freely available on the internet for anyone to find. I know you cannot hold the two guns together to compare as I have, but ask yourself after viewing the difference of how far the barrel sticks out on the left side of the pic beyond the black polymer grip... does this look like .1 inches to you? Regarless, it's silly to argue over your .1 or my .2. but the fact remains that the PM9 has tight tolerances. Please be aware that even a fraction of an inch in slide length will affect performance. I've racked both pistols and the new PM9 is noticeably harder to pull back. Now I didn't break them down and compare the springs, but I have to imagine that with ANY difference in slide length, the springs can no longer be interchangeable. Any gunsmith will tell you the same...you need specific parts to match up with very specific and exacting gun lengths.

[Riccardo]

And look at the slide stop lever. Can you see how it dovetails on the right side in the newer picture, where it stays rigid to the end on the older pic? Look at the slide lock marker at the bottom of the barrel against the grip - the tiny vertical line engraved onto the barrel. On the newer Kahr, it is at the bottom right of the "9" in the "PM9" moniker. But on the older Kahr, it is well to the right of "PM9" logo. For subcompacts required to function to precise specs, these differences are not easily dismissable. I hate being accused of spreading internet rumors or blowing smoke, when I am simply LOOKING at the old and new guns, side by side, and reporting back what I have found.

And regarding price, PLEASE put me in touch with your dealer sales contact, because if it has not gone up, mine is blowing smoke. Unless you are speaking of Midway or Cabelas. But for the poor pawnshop dealer, price has gone up...if only slightly ($15 or so). And though I hate it, this price is being passed on to the consumer.

But as to future buyers, I would definitely ask my vendor to provide me with the newer Kahr. If you ever end up needing to send it back, and I doubt it since, according to the mods here, you only have a .5% chance (right), I would bet the future of spring replacements will be spec'd to the newer barrel length/weight. Also, you'll get a slightly better shooting pistol, with just a fraction of an inch greater distance between the two sights (.1 or .2 inches in barrel length plus the movement forward of the front sight), and a gun that slips easier in and out of the pocket/holster.

[Seahawk60]

If you ever end up needing to send it back, and I doubt it since, according to the mods here, you only have a .5% chance (right), I would bet the future of spring replacements will be spec'd to the newer barrel length/weight.

Then simply ask Kahr to send you and "old version" spring. From what they told me AND what I've received in the mail, all they do is cut down the "new" spring for the old gun. Just MAKE sure Kahr understands you have an older PM9 so they don't send you the "new" version as they did with me. No, I haven't tested this "cut down" spring in my 2004 PM9 yet, but I will. And, I'll post results. Kahr had better get this spring thing right (consistently) because there are FAR more "old" PM9s out there than the recently changed version...and they're the ones that are going to be needing the replacement springs for quite some time until the "new" ones catch up...

Also, you'll get a slightly better shooting pistol, with just a fraction of an inch greater distance between the two sights (.1 or .2 inches in barrel length plus the movement forward of the front sight), and a gun that slips easier in and out of the pocket/holster.

I'll bet no one even notices a "better shooting" gun. Come on...a .1 inch increase in sight radius/barrel? That's a fingernail clipping.

[Riccardo]

Then simply ask Kahr to send you and "old version" spring. From what they told me AND what I've received in the mail, all they do is cut down the "new" spring for the old gun. Just MAKE sure Kahr understands you have an older PM9 so they don't send you the "new" version as they did with me. No, I haven't tested this "cut down" spring in my 2004 PM9 yet, but I will. And, I'll post results. Kahr had better get this spring thing right (consistently) because there are FAR more "old" PM9s out there than the recently changed version...and they're the ones that are going to be needing the replacement springs for quite some time until the "new" ones catch up...


I'll bet no one even notices a "better shooting" gun. Come on...a .1 inch increase in sight radius/barrel? That's a fingernail clipping.

Agreed! But owners need to be aware that they now have an "older" version of the Kahr. I'm personally not happy with simply 'cutting' the springs, because there are also weight/tension issues that should be very specifically measured to exact barrels, but hey, if it gets the job done. It's not as if you life would ever depend on the thing, right?

And you're probably right about the better shooting. I'm not even good enough to notice the difference between 3 and 4 inches. Unfortunately my wife is.

[garyb]

I compared my new PM40 to the photo of the PM9 and did not see any difference which makes me suspect the changes (bevel) is now on the PM40. I don't know what the old ones look like, but the purpose for holstering it seems to make sense and I like it.

[Seahawk60]

Look at the inch marker at the bottom of the barrel against the grip - the tiny vertical line engraved onto the barrel.

What's an "inch marker"? That's a line-up mark to line up with the mark on the frame to push the slide lock/disassembly pin out.

On the newer Kahr, it is at the bottom right of the "9" in the "PM9" moniker. But on the older Kahr, it is well to the right of "PM9" logo.

Not on my older one it isn't. The slide line-up line is exactly below the right-most upper corner of the "9" in PM9.

I just looked at the picture again. The PM9 logo on mine is engraved farther back than that "old" pistol. In fact, both the PM9 and Kahr logos are farther back. The "P" in PM9 on my slide starts right about at the rear of the front sight. And, the "AH" letters in Kahr are directly centered above the slide lock notch, as opposed to the "HR" letters in the picture. Weird...

[Seahawk60]

Agreed! But owners need to be aware that they now have an "older" version of the Kahr.

I agree with knowing about the differences. I didn't know there was a "new" PM9 and only found out about it when they sent me a spring that was too long. Then again, this started a few months ago so... How long exactly has this "new" PM9 been on the market? Sounds like only 6 months or so...maybe less... At any rate, this was an utter failure on their part since there are FAR more "old" PM9s in the hands of customers. They should be in *DEFAULT* mode now towards the "old" spring as the "new" spring has several years to catch up in the hands of the public. At any rate, they definitely need to ask and PAY attention. Kahr never asked, but I told them several times in my emails I had one made in 2004...and still got the wrong spring...twice. Then I got the "cut it down" email, but I demanded, instead, they send me one properly "cut down", which I just received...hasn't been tested yet. That way, if it isn't reliable they can NOT blame it on me "cutting it down" improperly. And, I kept the email trail for any future reference... If it proves to be reliable then I'll cut the other ones down and I should be set for life on PM9 "old" springs.

I'm personally not happy with simply 'cutting' the springs, because there are also weight/tension issues that should be very specifically measured to exact barrels, but hey, if it gets the job done. It's not as if you life would ever depend on the thing, right?

I, too, was less than impressed with the "just cut it down" chewing gum type fix instead of providing a proper spring. I thought the same things about proper spring length versus pre-load, compression strength, etc. If that really *is* supposed to be the "right thing", then just do it at the factory and the customers would never know about this "quick fix" and this discussion/b*tch session would have never been had. If they don't do it the customer will definitely notice something is wrong when they're unable to manually lock the slide back at ALL when the spring is new. And, that's definitely a problem...especially when they tell that person to "just cut it down".

And you're probably right about the better shooting. I'm not even good enough to notice the difference between 3 and 4 inches. Unfortunately my wife is.

Alrighty then... So not gonna go any further on THAT one!

[zebraD]

If it proves to be reliable then I'll cut the other ones down and I should be set for life on PM9 "old" springs.



Wait, you have been very clear ( you have posted over and over again) that you did not want to cut the spring yourself and that they should have done that for you. So now that you have several FREE springs from Kahr you can cut down the springs??? Something doesnt add up

[Captain_Cupcake]

If it proves to be reliable then I'll cut the other ones down and I should be set for life on PM9 "old" springs.

I was going to say also that this didn't seem right. If they sent you the wrong spring I am sure they would want the ones that "didn't fit" or ones that needed to be cut back and keeping them would seem wrong

[Seahawk60]

Wait, you have been very clear ( you have posted over and over again) that you did not want to cut the spring yourself and that they should have done that for you. So now that you have several FREE springs from Kahr you can cut down the springs??? Something doesnt add up

Yes, I did not *want* to cut the springs down myself...because they should have already arrived as a DROP IN replacement. When have you EVER had to modify a stock recoil spring to work in a pistol as it came from the factory? What's your friggin' point?

Kahr needs to send out the CORRECT springs, whether an entirely different one or a "modified" one, and NOT expect the end user to have to modify it themselves. If you do not understand then reference the modifying a stock spring for a STOCK pistol...do it over and over until you "get it". Comprendes?

Not my fault I have a few TOO LONG spares that *might* work, if cut down, because Kahr sent them unmodified BEFORE sending me the, ahem, "correct" spring. I'm sure as hell not sending them back and waiting again. If this "Kahr cut down" spring works, then why shouldn't I modify the ones I already have? Kahr never asked for them back. No money out of my pocket if those don't work. And, I'll definitely have a legitimate beef with Kahr if their "factory cut" spring doesn't work, either. Can't blame me for that one...

[Seahawk60]

I was going to say also that this didn't seem right. If they sent you the wrong spring I am sure they would want the ones that "didn't fit" or ones that needed to be cut back and keeping them would seem wrong

Well, they never asked for them back. And, they'd need to send me a padded envelope and a pre-paid Fedex mailing label, too. Believe me, Kahr KNOWS they sent me the wrong ones (i.e. too long) by now...

I ain't payin' to send 'em back... They would have asked, if concerned...and then they could have sent me the envelope and pre-paid postage when I requested it.

[Riccardo]

I was going to say also that this didn't seem right. If they sent you the wrong spring I am sure they would want the ones that "didn't fit" or ones that needed to be cut back and keeping them would seem wrong

Naw, that's not Kahr's MO. I've heard of customers who had magazine problems and Kahr just sent them new ones. The customers asked 'where do I send my old mags to?' and Kahr just told them to keep them for parts, use them for plinking or dump them. Just part of their good customer service...trying to make up for customers who have to repeatedly return these firearms.

[jocko]

I predict this is going to be a real pain in the ass on these recoil springs for the PM9, bieng now that kahr has two different length slides etc. Unless they ask or unless they specify in their manual to order springs for the new style beveled slide, and give a different part #, we are going to get this crap alot. I also feel I should not have to shorten recoil springs when I order them for my PM9. I expect the right length and not a "kit" type spring.

I have stated this to kahr also but it fell on deaf ears. I hate whrt they did to the PM9 now with the logner slide and beveled to boot, What purpose did this serve even?

their manual is outdated to say the least, guys are still getting the original PM9 manual in with their new style slide PM9 ..

I have bitched to much about this already and I am so glad I have a good supply of springs on stock from wolffs. Guy is gonna have to be careful ordering springs from wolffs nows to, for it he has the new style longer slide, wolffs springs will not work.

What a cluster fook!!!!

[Seahawk60]

And, one more thing...

I was just playing around with different spring/guide rod sets and testing the slide lock when I noticed ANOTHER difference when I installed a set I hadn't looked at closely before since I never put it in the pistol.

That guide rod/plunger assembly is longer than the others I have. Long enough that it pokes out the front of the slide, when assembled on the frame, by the thickness of the end cap. The entire plunger/inner guide rod is an eighth of an inch longer and, obviously, not flush with the slide as it should be.

So, whether or not you agree...and I'm sure some won't, I'm trying to help people here with Kahr so they know to specify, now, not only the right (cut down) spring, but also the shorter PM9 guide rod for the vast majority of already-owned pistols. Since there appears to be two different parts now and it's not just the outer spring.