Up To What Distance Are You Accurate?

[bigmacque]

That's a good post bwanna, and your comments reinforce something that jocko said earlier: anything more than about 7 yards becomes questionable "self-defense", and potential liability.

[Bawanna]

Thanks, and Jocko comes up with some really wise post from time to time. Sometimes it pays to listen to our elders. Don't act like em but listen to em and apply as necessary if ya get the flow of my river.

[jocko]

Heh, I am telling the truth, I am not a good shot with my kahrs, none of them, but I am a pretty good shot with my tuned G19, so i feel in 50+ years of shooting I have learned somewhat from my mistakes. I atrtibute my lack of better shooting skills with my kahrs to just that being a more difficout triggert system to master. Now u don't want me shooting at u at 10 yards, so make what u want out of that statement..

Some people out of the box to are just good shooters but the gun can certainly make a difference to. If a person says his kahrs will shoot as good as a 1911, then for me I want some of that smokey stuff. But that being said I know there are shooters on this forum who can take their kahrs and probably out shoot ol jocko with his 1911 (which he no longer has). I can say this with no hesitation. At 5 yards a 3 x 5 card with my G19 in hand will never have one shot out of that card, so if u can do that with your kahr at 25 yards, then we have a tie, other than that gas up your car and head to Indiana and we will bust some paper uip..

I have seen to many shot groups on this fourm and on other kahr forums I haven't seen that I can remember a 25 yard shot group with a karh all in the small x ring. I am sure it has been done often but your gonna see it more with a M &P9 or a glock 19 or a 1911 for sure. Just my two cents.

[Riccardo]

That's a good post bwanna, and your comments reinforce something that jocko said earlier: anything more than about 7 yards becomes questionable "self-defense", and potential liability.

Yes, but there are foreseeable situations where there it would benefit to have good distance shooting abilities. Most likely in my mind are animal situations. I for one take my gun hiking. A mountain lion can close a 7 yard gap in less time then it takes me to draw and shoot. If I see a brown bear charging and I'm only carrying a PM9, I will start shooting when he is at 20 yards...I won't wait until he's at 7 or 10.

2nd less likely scenario that comes to my mind are hostage/terror situations. If, as happened in Carlsbad, CA just a few weeks ago, I arrive at my child's elementary school and see a gunman at the fence, firing into the playground, you bet I will want to be able to make that 25 yard shot.

3rd and least likely are SHTF situations, which I won't even go into.

So I do feel there are certain benefits to extending my distance ability. And bottom line, it doesn't hurt and makes me more prepared.

[Bawanna]

Yes, but there are foreseeable situations where there it would benefit to have good distance shooting abilities. Most likely in my mind are animal situations. I for one take my gun hiking. A mountain lion can close a 7 yard gap in less time then it takes me to draw and shoot. If I see a brown bear charging and I'm only carrying a PM9, I will start shooting when he is at 20 yards...I won't wait until he's at 7 or 10.

2nd less likely scenario that comes to my mind are hostage/terror situations. If, as happened in Carlsbad, CA just a few weeks ago, I arrive at my child's elementary school and see a gunman at the fence, firing into the playground, you bet I will want to be able to make that 25 yard shot.

3rd and least likely are SHTF situations, which I won't even go into.

So I do feel there are certain benefits to extending my distance ability. And bottom line, it doesn't hurt and makes me more prepared.

It never hurts to get as good as you can get as far away as you can get but there are a multitude of scenarios where the PM9 just ain't gonna make it and anything bear at any distance is one big one right along with the big kitty cats.
Hiking for example would require a different tool box since your more concerned with animal defense and even 2 legged human predators could be handled with the same tools. Think 44 magnum.
I dont even want to think about taking on a shooter at a school playground at any distance with any gun unless your confident you'll take him out real quick and then lose your gun and reach for the clouds cause the cops will take you for a bad guy for sure.
And of course some scenarios you just gotta switch to the rifle, nothing else will do.
I recall sitting outside a friends motorhome on vacation, he said he didn't carry a handgun but had total faith in his shotgun for a do it all weapon. I said theres a threat walking accross the campground 75 ft away and closing, pulled out my PM45 and laid it on the picnic table, told him I was ready, where's your shotgun? (It was at home 400 miles away)
Last I heard he was shopping for a PM45. Go figure.

[Riccardo]

It never hurts to get as good as you can get as far away as you can get but there are a multitude of scenarios where the PM9 just ain't gonna make it and anything bear at any distance is one big one right along with the big kitty cats.
Hiking for example would require a different tool box since your more concerned with animal defense and even 2 legged human predators could be handled with the same tools. Think 44 magnum.
I dont even want to think about taking on a shooter at a school playground at any distance with any gun unless your confident you'll take him out real quick and then lose your gun and reach for the clouds cause the cops will take you for a bad guy for sure.
And of course some scenarios you just gotta switch to the rifle, nothing else will do.
I recall sitting outside a friends motorhome on vacation, he said he didn't carry a handgun but had total faith in his shotgun for a do it all weapon. I said theres a threat walking accross the campground 75 ft away and closing, pulled out my PM45 and laid it on the picnic table, told him I was ready, where's your shotgun? (It was at home 400 miles away)
Last I heard he was shopping for a PM45. Go figure.

I agree that a PM9 would not be 'ideal' in any of those situations, but I also think that those, and a multitude of other unanticipated situations could come up. Not only that, but it is FUN to prepare for them. I enjoy testing myself at distance, even if that is only 20 yards, and would like to get as good as I can. I'm just wondering how good you other Kahr owners are and what distances you feel confident at.

And I'm under no illusions and know that the parabellum round won't be bagging me any big game, but I do hope that it might be enough to dissuade, or scare off any large critter that think me or my pooch could be it's next lunch. 9mm might not kill, but I'll bet it would sure hurt and make that animal think twice...if I could make the hit at distance.

[jocko]

with bawanna PD experience and long life to boot, he can relate many scenarios where just good COMMON sense over this RAMBO stuff will prevail every time. I think the school playground scenario is dead center...I liked rambo's movies back then, but I also knew full and well they were scenarios that just does not happen in the real world.

[Bawanna]

In some cases it isn't really even common sense. In addition to all the other things you need to worry about you need to put yourself in the head of incoming police officers who are clueless to who is who.
Many many years ago I drove into what turned out to be a shoplift (I thought it was a robbery) at a safeway store. I saw 4 guys running around the corner of the store. I foolishly turned my car around and followed thinking just get a description, direction of travel and be a good witness. I didn't realize they had a get away car parked out back and before I knew it I was in front of them. 4 bad guys in the car, dawn, still dark, several safeway employees. Not good. I should have just drove away but I got out. (DUMB). I drew my Colt Cobra, didn't aim it at anyone and told the guys in the car just to stay put. A safeway employee asked if i was a cop, I said no. He said should I call, I said that's what I would do. I told him to make positive sure to describe me and my car and that I was the good guy. Didn't work.
About 2 minutes later theres 8 sheriff cruisers all around us guns all over the freaking place, yelling and screaming and general caous. They lined everyone up on their knees against the wall of the store. About 15 of us now. Now they had heard of the gun and thats' what they wanted first, course I couldn't hear for beans even then, more yelling and nobody is doing anything. Finally I yell back, I can't hear what your saying. One yells in my ear wheres the freaking gun. I said oh that would be me, left side cross draw, it's rare and mint please dont scratch it. HIs response FU punk. I said ok thanks.
Long story short, all 4 bad guys were hauled away, the safeway employees were back to work and I was still on my knees against the wall. One officer was nice enough to offer his coat to kneel on.
They turned out to be real nice, told me how to write a statement that put me in fear so they couldn't file assault charges on me. Gave me back my gun and said it was ok to reload, told them I'd load later. It was an interesting morning I hope I never experience again.

[jocko]

indeed and no THANK YOU from the officers either for thwarting a robbery. I am going to assume you even had a permit at the time. I just seen on tv today where they are getting ready to sentence a cop for shooting a african american that they had already subdued but was still causing issue and the cop thinking he was pulling out his taser, pulled out his gun and shot the guy. Your lucky Bawanna, some of these leo's shoot first and then ask questions. Many around my area which is a small town are IMO very unqualifed to be carrying a gun, let alone to have even bullets in it. I now understand Andy's method of dealing with Barney..

[Bawanna]

Yup, thank goodness I had a permit. I'd probably still be in the big house. The officers were nice and friendly once everything was sorted out. One was exceptionally helpful but said it was the other officers scene so he had to follow along. I was up against that stupid wall I'm betting at least an hour, no kidding.
I can't imagine what it would have been like had anyone actually shot somebody. One of my biggest fears being deaf, being ordered to do something and not hearing the order and getting shot. I'll pass.
Sadly I'm a get involved kind of guy, somebody needs help I'm there, I'm trying to Washington up and not do that but its a hold over from Missouri I think.

[JodyH]

That's a good post bwanna, and your comments reinforce something that jocko said earlier: anything more than about 7 yards becomes questionable "self-defense", and potential liability.

Exactly where do you get this information from?
Please send me a copy of this liability chart for self defense.
I wasn't issued one when I became a CCW instructor.

What if you're in the mall and see "Trenchcoat Bob" strolling down the center isle casually blasting Christmas shoppers with his Tec-9.
If he's 50 yards away you wouldn't be justified in shooting him?
You'd have to wait until he's within the magic 7?

What people need to learn is there is no magic distance that self defense starts or ends with.
There are times you would be justified shooting someone at 100 yards and times that nose to nose wouldn't be justified.

Take a good class on lethal force.
Learn exactly what intent, opportunity and ability mean.
I guarantee there won't be line drawn on the ground to separate justified from unjustified.

[Bawanna]

I think the big confusing issue often lost in all this is civilian defense versus offense. Slipping into the phone booth and putting on our superman cape is what all men naturally want to do, but it isn't always the right thing to do. We use the word most, not always and everything you said is exactly correct. Talking CCW and defense you can't take every word at face value.
There are times when you should do your best at any range and times we'd best not do anything at all. Often times its a question of interpretation too. It's a big pandoras box that no one has all the answers too.

[JodyH]

with bawanna PD experience and long life to boot, he can relate many scenarios where just good COMMON sense over this RAMBO stuff will prevail every time.

Common sense says that the guy who's decent at 7 yards but sucks at anything over 7 has severely limited his options.
You know what.
EVERYBODY is good enough at 7 yards.
Being forced into fighting at a distance where EVERYBODY is good enough to make hits doesn't make much sense does it?
It's been shown in police officer shootings that creating distance benefits the shooter with the most training.
The more distance the officer put between himself and the untrained bad guy, the greater chance the officer had of not getting shot.
Having the option to create distance and still make hits can be a huge advantage.
That's common sense, no Rambo script required.

[Bawanna]

One more point before I distance myself to the next county.

The point that I've tried to make earlier and I believe some of the other guys as well is creating that distance which again your are totally correct on (distance is always your friend and why we put rifles in patrol cars) also creates an out for a civilian to get away. Is he now still defending himself or is he in offense mode in a longer distance gun fight.

Your mall scenario with trench coat bob and his tech 9 at 50 yards. One would be justified in shooting him dead without question but technically your in offense mode to save others not so much yourself. Lots of things to think about in that one. Hit bystanders, drawing his attention to other people around you, thank you very much, maybe engaging him in a gun fight when he was trying to just get out, hopefully to be shot by police outside.

Overwelming number of things to think about.

[garyb]

Again, practical applications for close range 7 yrd self defense vs target shooting to become more accurate and to push yourself to attain the same personal limits as your handgun (any gun) is capable of are two different creatures. A TC will shoot accurately to 100 yrds and I agree. It sounds like Ricardo was wondering what distance his GUN was accurate, but we all know that the reality is what distance is the shooter accurate? I honestly can't say about the gun by itself and we are all different. It is going to take hard work and practice to figure out those limitations (of gun and shooter). What are the capabilities of the Kahr you own and what are your capabilities with that handgun???? Something to work out for yourself, but this is probably not the same discussion as what each individual feels is the "norm" range for practical applications for self defense. It is target shooting to become better at longer distances than 7 or 10 yards. But as Ricardo seems to be pointing out through his examples, that the practical scenarios MAY vary, as will the distances. As a martial artist for 23 years, with two black belts, I can say that one does not just practice one punch, or one block, or one kick. One develops an array of techniques for varied situations, until you make your response mindless (automatic). So why not try to become this proficient with the handgun at multiple distances and push the short distance limit? After all, it is fun to shoot....and OH so cheap...ha ha. I already tend to feel that defensive accuracy at 15 yards will be easily attainable and 25 yards will not be out of reach nor be beyond the capability of the gun...even with a PM40. I have already felt the potential and that's the distance I've set for my personal goal and what I will be reaching for over time. The speed will be reduced but the accuracy seems to be attainable. Some may feel that I may be fooling myself, but there is nothing wrong with the goal. I tend to believe the PM40 or PM9 are capable of consistent accuracy at 25 yrds...but what about the shooter? I am not talking about one inch groups, or even 3X5" playing cards..., but perhaps a paper plate....I don't know yet and I am not pretending to. What "TARGET" distance (not self defense or offense distance) do you feel the PM9 and PM40 are consistently accurate, if all shooter errors were removed...perhaps using a mechanical device of some sort? I wonder too.