Up To What Distance Are You Accurate?

[Riccardo]

These responses are sad in a way. I ask what distance you are accurate out to and I get a bunch of defensive "why would I need to be?" responses. It's a simple question people... don't take offense to it. If you don't know, you don't know. If you can't shoot for #$%@ beyond the reach of your arm, just come out and say it. This was in no way related to practical application. I was just wondering. As Sharon Angle famously said....

[JodyH]

Is he now still defending himself or is he in offense mode in a longer distance gun fight.

There are no offensive and defensive fights.
You fight to survive.
You'll know when the fights over, and distance has nothing to do with it.

[jocko]

u

These responses are sad in a way. I ask what distance you are accurate out to and I get a bunch of defensive "why would I need to be?" responses. It's a simple question people... don't take offense to it. If you don't know, you don't know. If you can't shoot for #$%@ beyond the reach of your arm, just come out and say it. This was in no way related to practical application. I was just wondering. As Sharon Angle famously said....

did ask a simple question and no doubt it has gotten out of hand from ur OP. that is what happens when you deal with a gun forum to, Some people take it to a higher level with so many scenarios, that we are at a mall shooting some ak nuthead at 50 yards.

I still remember a survey done quite a few years ago with the NYPD and that over 60% of all shots fired at 6 FEET and under MISSED. The body tends to do alot of things differently when stress is involved. Ask any bow hunter who has had a 10 pointer walk within 10 yards of him , Where as a gun hunter would have shot the deer at 50+ yards and never had the opportunity to feel the real adrenalin. And to add to all of this, every person is going to react to a situation differently. to me there is no perfect scenario, but no doubt it is fun dreaming of being the superman in a mall and blasting a ninja ak nut case at 50 yards and not hitting another person. You would get my vote for sure but if you shot at this nut case at 50 yards and killed my wife or child,, you better find a deep hole to live in...

[swampman]

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Pocket guns are not known for their long range accuracy. I'm wondering to what range most of you PM9/40/45 owners feel accurate at? I'm also wondering if that changes depending on caliber?

At 15 yards, I'm at a 5" spread around the bullseye, but at 25 yards, I can only hit paper about 50% of the time. So I'd say I feel life and death accurate out to about maybe 17 or 18 yards. Hope a bunch of you guys will weigh in to let me know how much more I should be practicing.

My gun shoots so far and accurate,I had to get a license in the next State over.

[Riccardo]

I still remember a survey done quite a few years ago with the NYPD and that over 60% of all shots fired at 6 FEET and under MISSED.

That's just a SCARY statistic. I wonder if any amount of training and practice can overcome that? I guess until you are in that 'stressed' life and death situation, you don't really know. But at least I can say I have a gun to miss with. Puts me ahead of 9/10ths of the sheeple.

[JodyH]

I still remember a survey done quite a few years ago with the NYPD and that over 60% of all shots fired at 6 FEET and under MISSED.

Using NYPD SOP9 statistics can be very misleading and they don't translate well to civilian CCW situations.
In most cases the cops are ambushed and attempting to return fire after already taking hits.
There's also "sympathetic" fire from fellow officers on scene that tends to be "spray and pray" in the same general direction as their fellow officers are shooting, often they can't actually see the threat but shoot anyway because their fellow officers are engaging in that direction.
You also have many situations where officers are shooting at or into vehicles which deflect a lot of rounds.

It's actually a rare situation where a civ is ambushed by gunfire. In most civilian situations the badguy wishes to conduct a "business transaction" with his intended victim. The gun is his negotiation tool. The CCW "victim" will more than likely not be shot in the first few seconds and has more time to process what's going on.
You tend not to have multiple CCW's on the same scene sympathetically shooting in the same general direction.
The CCW will rarely be shooting at or into a vehicle. The more likely scenario is shooting either out of the drivers window or door at close range or shooting across the seat at an unwanted passenger (carjacking) neither situation has a lot of barriers between you and the badguy.

SOP9 is a decent read and has a lot of good info, but not all of it translates directly to the typical CCW defensive gun use situation.

[skychief12]

IMHO, JodyH's comments make the most sense. He is consistent with Massad Ayoob's appearance on a TV show last week. Ayoob was pointing out actually shooting incidents where the distance exceeded the THEORETICAL 12 yards or less (or what ever it is) by considerable distances. The point he was making is that it is only a STATISTICAL THEORY don't bet your life on it. Personally, I'm trying to train myself to shoot the tightest groups at the longest distance I'm capable of. With my luck I won't find myself in the theoretical situation.

Honestly, if I shoot from a good bench rest my 4" Kimber CDP II .45 shoots tighter groups at longer distances than my CW40 period. Taking into account my ability and the ballistic for .40 S&W I consider my Kahr a 25 yard maximum effective weapon in a real shooting situation. I'd trust my Kimber .45 at 50 yards. Reality is, I'll shoot both further if I have to (all other situational things considered). My first objective is to survive. I'll deal with the court case later.

BTW, if you encounter a knife attack from 7 yards, plan of being at least cut. This was demonstrated on one of the Outdoor Channel "Wednesday Night at the Range" shows. Neither the host or guest instructor could pull from concealment and fire before the they were in striking range of the Knife attacker.

If you are only effective at 7 yards and satisfied with that, I'll add you to my prayers.

As for the 100 yards shots belong in Afghanistan. Ayoob reminded that the Texas Bell Tower shooter as shooting over 300 yards. Texas is not in Afghanistan.

[wyntrout]

I would add that you need to practice shooting with one hand... both hands, one-at-a-time. In a knife fight or close gunfight you might be using the closest hand to the threat to fend off a knife OR a gun.
Before my PM45 got a new frame, I could not fire it one-handed without stove pipes, making it a bad choice for a defensive weapon. If you only shoot two-handed, slowly from a stance of any kind, or from a bench rest, you're not preparing for the real world where you don't have time for careful aim and standing still. Depending on the situation, you need to do whatever will get you from step one to a step two... the first thing will be not getting shot, so ducking or grappling with the BG might be appropriate as a start. You have to survive first and conditions will dictate your response and some thought about that beforehand would be a nice start in preparation.
Wynn

[deadhead1971]

umm....I have my experience documented here http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistol...uracy-pm9.html

Shooting slow with a laser, I can hit close groups at 30 feet. It's all in the trigger control. I have a bad habit of jerking the trigger which sends it left of point of aim.

[bigmacque]

Nice deadhead .... I like the documentation, as you pointed out it can be a learning thing.

[jocko]

yup

umm....I have my experience documented here http://kahrtalk.com/pm-series-pistol...uracy-pm9.html

Shooting slow with a laser, I can hit close groups at 30 feet. It's all in the trigger control. I have a bad habit of jerking the trigger which sends it left of point of aim.

ur normal. me a lefty I pull right of POA. I get close but no banannas

[garyb]

Riccardo, To answer your question directly, I am now shooting well within a pie plate at 45 feet. I take up the trigger just to the surprise point and continue to gently squeeze through with follow through. I read a good handgun dry fire manual from www.frontsight.com which explains how to correct for left and right by finding the proper location on the 1st pad of your trigger/index finger. I also practice dry fire with the CTL 2-3 times a week at home, when my wife is at work. The dry fire practice (as most of you realize) is essential and the laser works well to demonstrate where the bullet would have hit when the trigger releases. This part is mostly feel to develop muscle memory. I use the front sights and see the laser just about the front sight on the target. It is quick. Finally, I practice developing "index", which is looking at a target, then closing your eyes and bringing up your handgun. Then open your eyes to see if you are on the target. Practice over and over. You can read about this in Dillon's Blue Press, November 2010 issue, p64. The practice combination of using the CTL as a tool with the front sight; practicing the feel of your trigger take-up by gently squeezing through; figuring out what spot on your trigger finger pad to use; and developing index - are all essential. When I go to the range to practice with live fire, it all comes together. I expect to improve my pie plate accuracy at 45' and to extend my distance to 60 feet where the CTL is no longer visible outdoors. My goal is to consistently be within a pie plate at 75 ft, in order to develop much tighter groups at closer distances, based on divergence. I also always spend time practicing at 7', slow and rapid fire. As a result of my practice at longer distances, the 7' stuff becomes very easy, especially with the CTL. In my speed practice I practice my draw from pocket and side holster; and also include practice dropping the empty mag and simultaneously reloading a fresh mag from an open top mag belt pouch. It is all preparation for IDPA for gun handling and my exercise combinations are all about accuracy practice (dry and live). It is not about what distance I will need to shoot bad guys, or situational issues, or legal issues, etc.... It is simply improvement drills for preparation.
By the way, I shoot a PM40 with CTL.

[Bawanna]

garyb, excellent post.

Best of thread yet in my opinion. You've separated the real life issues, leaving out the legal issues and all the stuff that muddied the discussion up this point and focused on practicing and preparing for a shooting game. Improving your skils and extending your range. As you said being good a long range has to equate with very very good and almost mindless at close range.
Of course all the practice and benefits thereof will carry over into real world scenarios which while often times forgotten was the initial purpose of IDPA in the first place.

Excellent post, good thoughts.

[jeep45238]

For those of you that are hitting left or right of your point of aim with Kahrs, take a look at this video.

YouTube - Trigger Pull


That said, I do not carry a PM series, but I can hit at 100 yards with my carry pistol when I take my time, with my carry ammo.

[bigmacque]

I gotta second bwanna's post, gary, that was a lot of good info.