Should a BG be shot

[diablo53]

If the BG is coming after you or your family then by all means do what needs to be done BUT we are not the Police and if possible it's best to let them handle it because they are the pros....If you take a shot at a BG holding up a 7-11 and miss and kill an innocent person it's your butt on the line and you have to remember that even if you have a dead bang shot there may be another BG behind you that you never saw....Remember this story:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...killing-spree/

Yes he was a hero and took out a killer but he didn't get to go home.....Was it worth getting involved?......You decide

That article states nothing about taking out a killer.. He only confronted a killer and was shot from behind at close range by the wife. Sometimes there's a fine line between brave and stupid, but I wouldn't call him a hero. However indirect the killer's subsequent suicide was, the good guy was still called a "hero."

The article does make your point about choosing the right time to engage or fade into the background. Every situation is different.

[Longitude Zero]

If the BG is coming after you or your family then by all means do what needs to be done BUT we are not the Police and if possible it's best to let them handle it because they are the pros....If you take a shot at a BG holding up a 7-11 and miss and kill an innocent person it's your butt on the line and you have to remember that even if you have a dead bang shot there may be another BG behind you that you never saw....Remember this story:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...killing-spree/

Yes he was a hero and took out a killer but he didn't get to go home.....Was it worth getting involved?......You decide

Precisely. With the proliferation of CCW and OC "Robbery Teams" are springing up. You have the primary actor that everybody sees but there can and often times are backup shooters that do nothing but observe. If a citizen attempts to intervene they get popped and the robbery team flees. If you choose to intervene and an innocent is harmed or killed from any cause then you have the burden of proof to show that what you did was reasonable under the given circumstances. I have a specific set of rules that help me to determine if, when, and how I will intervene. In the vast majority of cases unless you have the gun pointed at you or yours, discretion being the better part of valor being a great witness might be the best course of action.

[muggsy]

And then there's the case where everyone is herded into a back room and murdered, because the perp didn't want any witnesses. Every damn one of us is going to die someday. How and when isn't all that important. It's how you live that's important. I'd rather die trying to save a life than to live knowing that I did nothing to prevent a life from being taken. I'd rather die on my feet than on my knees. If your not willing to use it why carry it?

[Allen]

Precisely. With the proliferation of CCW and OC "Robbery Teams" are springing up. You have the primary actor that everybody sees but there can and often times are backup shooters that do nothing but observe. If a citizen attempts to intervene they get popped and the robbery team flees. If you choose to intervene and an innocent is harmed or killed from any cause then you have the burden of proof to show that what you did was reasonable under the given circumstances. I have a specific set of rules that help me to determine if, when, and how I will intervene. In the vast majority of cases unless you have the gun pointed at you or yours, discretion being the better part of valor being a great witness might be the best course of action.

Your last sentence is what has me mostly concerned. How many of us could possibly be able to do anything after the gun is already pointed at you? I know I'm not that fast on the draw. Appreciate all the responses.

[Arkansas Bob]

Just do what feels right. Everybody is different. Key is to think it over before you ever have to decide. This thread is a great thought provoker if you had not given much though to it. Still boils down to your gut feeling at the time. Then is not the time to mull it over. Bob

[getsome]

I still say your best weapon is situational awareness....I can't believe how many people I see walking in a Walmart or grocery store parking lot at night looking at their cell phones while wearing ear buds and not paying any attention to their surroundings....Last month I saw a guy playing with his phone step off a curb directly into the path of a car and get nailed, guy never even looked where he was going....When I'm pumping gas or walking to or from my car in a parking lot I'm looking at everything and my right hand is in my pocket on my pistol so I will have the advantage if a BG comes my way....I NEVER walk into a convenience store without looking through the window at the register to see what might be going on because once you walk into the middle of a holdup it's too late to do anything.....

[Longitude Zero]

Your last sentence is what has me mostly concerned. How many of us could possibly be able to do anything after the gun is already pointed at you? I know I'm not that fast on the draw. Appreciate all the responses.

Research the "OODA Loop". Action always beats reaction. If you have a weapon pointed at you the perps perception/reaction time is generally 1.5 seconds. Most perps are NOT expecting a counter-attack and thus many times their perception/reaction time is greater than 1.5 seconds. The key to be able to move and shoot simultaneously. Sadly a skill 99% of CCW and OC folks DO NOT practice. Primarily because ranges liability procedures will not allow you to. Another area lacking is weapons retention and deflection training. Fortunately I am in a professional position to regularly practice all these skills and more. These are 100% skills that must be performed instantly and without conscious thought. They must be instinctive and that takes thousands and thousands of repetitions to get correct. If the perps weapon is within grabbing distance you can possibly at least deflect the weapon with your non gun hand while drawing and shooting with your gun hand.

It is vital that you become so ingrained with the physical manipulation of your firearm that it takes no thought and is instinctual. That way you leave your cognitive ability free to decide upon your actions and not the physicality of weapons handling/retention/deflection. The Lindell Method of Weapon retention works both ways. It teaches how not to loose control of your weapon/get it back if you do and to take/deflect the perps weapon. All that being said a citizen has NO definitive duty to protect anyone other than themselves and their immediate family, friends, coworkers etc. You have no duty to protect a stranger although the majority of CCW and OC folks will defend a perfect stranger as we should if it is feasible. Never forget that even if you do everything correct and shoot the perp he/she may get of that perfect shot and you will die anyway.

[Longitude Zero]

I still say your best weapon is situational awareness....I can't believe how many people I see walking in a Walmart or grocery store parking lot at night looking at their cell phones while wearing ear buds and not paying any attention to their surroundings....Last month I saw a guy playing with his phone step off a curb directly into the path of a car and get nailed, guy never even looked where he was going....When I'm pumping gas or walking to or from my car in a parking lot I'm looking at everything and my right hand is in my pocket on my pistol so I will have the advantage if a BG comes my way....I NEVER walk into a convenience store without looking through the window at the register to see what might be going on because once you walk into the middle of a holdup it's too late to do anything.....

Exactly. The best gunfight is the one you avoid by paying attention.

[Longitude Zero]

[kwh]

Thanks to everyone so far for reminders and ways to think and behave before IT happens. I am studying ^OODA^ now. Like so many I have an indoor range but not able to practice "walk and shoot".
Keep the thread going.

[Longitude Zero]

Occams Razor...The simplest solution is generally the best.

Hicks Law...Describes the time it takes for a person to make a decision as a result of the possible choices he or she has: increasing the number of choices will increase the decision time logarithmically.

[getsome]

Thanks to everyone so far for reminders and ways to think and behave before IT happens. I am studying ^OODA^ now. Like so many I have an indoor range but not able to practice "walk and shoot".
Keep the thread going.

If possible find a range that has IDPA staged shooting events where you get to move and fire at targets, MUCH harder than it sounds.....Lots of fun and probably the best real world practice a civilian shooter can get....It's one thing to shoot at a paper target over and over and quite another to have to think, move, fire, and reload as fast as you can.....Super fun and really good practice!

[ltxi]

I'd do what I've long been conditioned to do. With a clear shot, stk....mebbe with a warning first if it be safe.

[CJB]

I still say your best weapon is situational awareness....

Yup! And not losing your head. You got trouble? Ok.... take a moment, if you can, and get prepared. Each and every situation is different. And the BG ain't following the plan (been said before).

If there is gunplay already.... well, that sort of rules out everything. Whether you decide to confront, or cower... well that depends on the BG, the situation, you... everything.

ONE time - I was in a place that got robbed. No gunplay. Employees got the BG and held him till cops arrived. Was I "ready"? Yes I was. Made absolutely no big deal about it, nobody knew, but... if there was going to be a further problem, I was already ready.

Thinking... there was a guy that returned to a local bar, after some altercation, and he was armed with a (really doofusly bad imitation of) Samurai sword. Would I have gotten just as ready? Yup. Was it needed? Nope. Some bikers grabbed his sword, busted it in two, and whacked his ass with it and sent him packing. Ya never know.

Its better, in my mind, to be the person at ready, thinking, observing... than the person rushing in. But.... sometimes I guess ya gotta. Its all situational.

[Longitude Zero]

Its all situational.

Absolutely. Every situation is unique.