.45 distance?

[CJB]

Calculating the maximum ordinate....

I remember trying to calculate it for my .38 reloads once. Didn't do too well. My Security-Six testing in fallow bean fields told me that it was about 400 yards when the barrel was held about 25-30 degrees up. It was fun lobbing the dewc slugs at groups of birds like a mortar round when the testing was over.

Hatcher implies that these United States fought two World Wars with the "wrong ammo", whereby: Pre-WWI we had the 150g spitzer, which proved to be accurate, but was totally outclassed by the German 8mm ammo in WWI. During the War to end all Wars, we borrowed the boat tail design from the Swiss, and finally after some (years of) testing, came up with the best boat tail angle and the famous 174g cupro-nickel bullet that shot really well, and carried well better than any ammo anyone else had at the time. The trouble was, the war was over at that point, by about 8 years. We did manage to squeak out victory, despite the ammo limitations.

After the war, surplus ammo was sold to clubs, and also used for general training at Army bases. This presented a problem, since the rotation of the ammo into surplus status eventually showed that the new bullets flew so well, that they far exceeded the safety zones beyond the target points at existing ranges. US Army Ordnance (the flaming bomb guys), decided to make up some 152g spitzers again, out of gilding metal, and they dyed them with a solution (tin?) that made them resemble the cupro-nickel bullets of the old days.

Fast forward a few more years, to WWII. The doughboys liked shooting (and carrying) the 152g M2 ball much better than the 174g M1 ball. So thats what they did. As Hatcher put it - all the old machine gunners and snipers of WWI were gone... and there was no collective memory of the distance limitations that the flat base lighter bullet had.

So, history had gone full circle, another World War, and we again had the wrong ammo to get the job done best. Interesting lesson to be learned there, no?

[kb2wji]

I agree that fast will go further than slow. Drop a 9mm, 40, 45 etc... from a roof top. They will all hit the ground at the same time. Air resistance plays a role, but will be very negligible when comparing bullets. All those bullets will be dropping at pretty much the same rate....it mostly boils down to how far that bullet travels each second. Accelleration of gravity is the same regardless of bullet size/weight.

[CJB]

The case(s) in question don't really apply... but you cannot negate air resistance from the thought process. Taken a step further, an exceedingly light bullet at tremendous velocity would not fare so well at longer ranges. There is the momentum that is quickly lost to the greater resistance at very high speed. Also - supersonic resistance is much higher than subsonic. If you look at the curves for different cartridges/ammo types, they all take a blip at the speed of sound (more or less). Pistol bullets hover right over or right under the supersonic threshold....but its not a great factor as pistol bullets aren't really that aerodynamically efficient.

Back to air resistance - the old example applies: Given a high enough airplane, a pistol fired down at the ground would project a constantly decelerating bullet, which would slow to the point where the acceleration of gravity was equal to the resistance applied by the atmosphere - also known as terminal velocity - which also is quite slow for pistol bullets, in ballistic terms.

[johnatw]

Dang, a lot of folks stayed at the Holiday Inn this week.

[jocko]

bet that guy never ask that question again!!

[Russ]

Wynn you bring up a good point regarding the curve of the Earth. I watched an Imax regarding the space shuttle and the astronauts are constantly falling but due to the curve of the Earth and the rate of speed they are orbiting the Earth they avoid hitting the ground.

[Dietrich]

bet that guy never ask that question again!!

Are you kidding? I wish I had asked it.He`s probably rolling on the floor,laughing his hiney off.I know I would be.

[yqtszhj]

My completely unscientific comment is this based on the following redneck ballistics.

The faster and more streamlined the bullet, the farther it goes but one must also consider the mass of the round and Newtons law of motion. I make this comment based on my following findings:

.380 90 gr. JHP at 990 fps goes through 4 milk jugs and stops in the 5th. expands to a size just smaller than a dime.
9mm 115 gr. JHP at 1180fps goes through 2 milk jugs, stops in the third, and expands to a size of a penny.
.45 185 gr. JHP at 950 fps goes through 3 milk jugs, stops in the fourth , and expands to the size slightly larger than a nickel.

What does all this mean? I dont know but wouldn't want to get hit by any of them including a .380 as that smaller bullet seems like an ice pick, not too big of a hole but it goes does penetrate.

Also after talking to a paramedic yesterday about some things he has seen, shot placement is everything and it doesn't matter if it is a .22 or a .45

[JFootin]

My completely unscientific comment is this based on the following redneck ballistics.

The faster and more streamlined the bullet, the farther it goes but one must also consider the mass of the round and Newtons law of motion. I make this comment based on my following findings:

.380 90 gr. JHP at 990 fps goes through 4 milk jugs and stops in the 5th. expands to a size just smaller than a dime.
9mm 115 gr. JHP at 1180fps goes through 2 milk jugs, stops in the third, and expands to a size of a penny.
.45 185 gr. JHP at 950 fps goes through 3 milk jugs, stops in the fourth , and expands to the size slightly larger than a nickel.

What does all this mean? I dont know but wouldn't want to get hit by any of them including a .380 as that smaller bullet seems like an ice pick, not too big of a hole but it goes does penetrate.

Also after talking to a paramedic yesterday about some things he has seen, shot placement is everything and it doesn't matter if it is a .22 or a .45

Wait a minute. An ice pick? The .380 bullet is the same diameter as the 9mm. Not as much mass. Doesn't expand quite as large. But how does it go that much further? Are these results from your own testing? I guess the expansion, even in very small increments, makes a big difference. Makes a good case for FMJ loads in small calibers, doesn't it?

[TheTman]

I just dropped a .45 cal cartridge, and it hit the ground before I could finish saying one-thousand. It hit aproximately at one-thou... I'd guess around .5 to .75 seconds. Therefore a 230 gr. traveling at 850 FPS, shot parralel to the ground is going to hit the ground somewhere around 500-700 feet or so. That's about the best I can figure it.

[yqtszhj]

Wait a minute. An ice pick? The .380 bullet is the same diameter as the 9mm. Not as much mass. Doesn't expand quite as large. But how does it go that much further? Are these results from your own testing? I guess the expansion, even in very small increments, makes a big difference. Makes a good case for FMJ loads in small calibers, doesn't it?

Yep, I did this "redneck" testing at my local rural outdoor range. The only thing I can figure is that the .380 had less mass thus expanded less (less resistance) so the velocity let if get farther. Just a wild guess since this is unscientific. My goal was just to check out the expansion of each round but was quite suprised at how much farther the .380 round went. I got what I figured from the .45 and 9mm but the .380 results "blew me away."

I'm not suggesting anything here just posting my results.

[wyntrout]

My completely unscientific comment is this based on the following redneck ballistics.

The faster and more streamlined the bullet, the farther it goes but one must also consider the mass of the round and Newtons law of motion. I make this comment based on my following findings:

.380 90 gr. JHP at 990 fps goes through 4 milk jugs and stops in the 5th. expands to a size just smaller than a dime.
9mm 115 gr. JHP at 1180fps goes through 2 milk jugs, stops in the third, and expands to a size of a penny.
.45 185 gr. JHP at 950 fps goes through 3 milk jugs, stops in the fourth , and expands to the size slightly larger than a nickel.

What does all this mean? I dont know but wouldn't want to get hit by any of them including a .380 as that smaller bullet seems like an ice pick, not too big of a hole but it goes does penetrate.

Also after talking to a paramedic yesterday about some things he has seen, shot placement is everything and it doesn't matter if it is a .22 or a .45

There are a lot of factors to consider there. If the bullets were all similar, ie., Gold Dots of the same construction, bonded and all, then the extra 200fps of the 9mm causes it to upset sooner and be slowed more quickly than the .380. All of this stuff is taken into consideration when designing these defensive loads.

The .45 is larger and heavier, so the differences are larger and addressed by the designers to perform as desired.

I haven't done penetration tests or chronographed any rounds personally, but all of the data is available on the 'Net with a few keystrokes. There are plenty of "Bubba tests", and more professional ones comprised of police and shooting magazines reporters and columnists, as well as factory testing. I've seen the JHPs penetrate barriers like windshields and punch through the dummy's head, where FMJ's were deflected! There are full tests with angled windshields and other barriers... and of course, car doors.

This video at Kiesler Police Supply covers a lot of popular duty ammo:

http://www.kiesler.com/videodetail.aspx?id=1534

It's lengthy and gets into rifle ammo as well.

I guess that's a scenario that might pop up if you're out walking or near a street and become a target of opportunity for some gang-bangers looking for a handy target. A lot of those happen in the wee hours of the morning when the pickin's are slim, so I try to avoid that stupidity, since I no longer have a dog to walk.

The testing I've done is for function in my pistols and to document the flash brightness when fired from my pistols. A lot of the defense ammo boasts low-flash powder and/or designed for Short Barrel use... getting the desired performance by using faster burning powder with lower flash properties.

This is how I chose the Speer Gold Dot Short-Barrel version. I didn't notice a difference in the 9mm variations. I'm still using +P 124-gr GDs by Double Tap, which were pretty BRIGHT. I'm putting those in my home defense K9 and using the +P 124-gr GD SB in my PM9 for carry.

I COULD see a big difference in the 230-gr Gold Dots, though. The SB variants had a shallower, but wider bottom of the cavity. The SB's were about 1/10 inch shallower. Obviously, these SB's were designed to perform out of shorter barrels and give about the same penetration and expansion with less flash. It's hard to discern the flash difference, but I guess it's there. I didn't notice that much difference between the 3, 4, or 5-inch barrels, but it was certainly less than the FMJ's by several different manufacturers.

Wynn

[rwblue01]

OP, assuming you are talking about factory ammo 115gr FMJ for the 9mm and 230gr FMJ for the 45ACP and assuming both guns were sighted in for 25 yards, the 45ACP will hit the ground closer to the shooter.

Basically, the 9mm travels faster (which equals farther) before gravity takes its effects on it.

But, if you were shooting in a rock quarry and the area behind the target was flat rock, all bets are off because the 45ACP being heavier may bounce farther than the 9mm.

[rwblue01]

Calculating the maximum ordinate....

I remember trying to calculate it for my .38 reloads once. Didn't do too well. My Security-Six testing in fallow bean fields told me that it was about 400 yards when the barrel was held about 25-30 degrees up. It was fun lobbing the dewc slugs at groups of birds like a mortar round when the testing was over.

Hatcher implies that these United States fought two World Wars with the "wrong ammo", whereby: Pre-WWI we had the 150g spitzer, which proved to be accurate, but was totally outclassed by the German 8mm ammo in WWI. During the War to end all Wars, we borrowed the boat tail design from the Swiss, and finally after some (years of) testing, came up with the best boat tail angle and the famous 174g cupro-nickel bullet that shot really well, and carried well better than any ammo anyone else had at the time. The trouble was, the war was over at that point, by about 8 years. We did manage to squeak out victory, despite the ammo limitations.

After the war, surplus ammo was sold to clubs, and also used for general training at Army bases. This presented a problem, since the rotation of the ammo into surplus status eventually showed that the new bullets flew so well, that they far exceeded the safety zones beyond the target points at existing ranges. US Army Ordnance (the flaming bomb guys), decided to make up some 152g spitzers again, out of gilding metal, and they dyed them with a solution (tin?) that made them resemble the cupro-nickel bullets of the old days.

Fast forward a few more years, to WWII. The doughboys liked shooting (and carrying) the 152g M2 ball much better than the 174g M1 ball. So thats what they did. As Hatcher put it - all the old machine gunners and snipers of WWI were gone... and there was no collective memory of the distance limitations that the flat base lighter bullet had.

So, history had gone full circle, another World War, and we again had the wrong ammo to get the job done best. Interesting lesson to be learned there, no?

Hatcher was wrong with the exception of North Africa the distances of engagement were not that long. Several people have suggested that the M1 Carbine should have been the prefered gun in WWII. It was light weight, could carry more ammo, quicker on target, it has the power or the 357mag at 100 yards, .....

I will say one more thing. The M1 Garand would have been better if the rifle and ammo had been redesigned to be more like an M16A4 with M855. Giving penetration and fragmentation.

[CJB]

It was WWI he was talking about - with the distances of engagement. As far as I recall, Hatcher didn't comment on the WWII engagement specifics, except to infer that the 174g boat tail would have done a better job of things. There's more to winning wars than the maximum ordinate of a service rifle, or (more specifically) a machine gun. Range counts more on the latter, and Hatcher was "Mr. Machine Gun/Machine Rifle" up until the end of WWII.

The M1 Garand rifle only had to compete with what the enemy had, and things do progress (or regress as the case sometimes is) with time.