NYPD shoot more civilians, charge the target with the shooting

[WLEEP]

I can see both sides of this. Cops deal the deadliest scum of our society every day. There's is no easy job and calls for split second decisions with no do overs or mulligans. That said, I seem to detect a different attitude lately. But I'm not so sure it's because of an increasingly younger police force as much as a sea change in today's societal makeup. I would not have their job and all of us should be grateful that some will still step up.


That said, incidents like this in my home county, should give all of us pause to reflect. His family may (and should in my opinion) win a $ 10 million lawsuit, but that will never bring back this innocent civilian who was minding his own business in his home. The police, in this case, had no probable cause to even be at his door. The media called it an "accident," manslaughter might be a more apt description.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...apartment.html

[Bawanna]

First I think America is already a police state but it has nothing to do with cops.

Yes many departments are para military, every department has the gadget group wanting all the new toys that come out and mimic the SEALS or LAPD SWAT. We've only had one bad guy shot in over a 100 years but we still have a swat team, sniper, etc etc because it could happen tomorrow.
I fear more for depts like our where it is the rare thing than the depts where crap happens every day. We get lax, never could to be lax ever.

The main issue is budget. Some cops don't like to go to the range, I know this to be true, especially brass, chiefs, deputy chiefs and such. At the range the instructor has rank and the brass usually suck at shooting.

The brass usually want's to keep range time to a minimum cause it cost a ton of money, even our tiny little dept, takes a of ammo.
We used to have quarterly quals, then semi annually and now down to once annually. Still have a training days periodically but never enough.
Bottom line is it's usually not the individual officers but the bean counters that control firearm training.

Most really don't have time to do it on their own, so do.

[TheTman]

Muggsy, I'll agree that the their are many cops that are stong supporters of the 2nd Amendment, and belong to the NRA. I admire the various sheriffs that have publicly said they will refuse to enforce any new gun control laws they see as unconstitutional. Bravo to them. But just in this thread, is another story of cops going to the wrong address, banging on the door in the middle of the night WITHOUT ANNOUNCING THEY WERE POLICE, and the homeowner armed himself to see what was up, and was executed as soon as the cops saw his gun. Now wouldn't you think that most gun owners would arm themselves before answering the door in the middle of the night, who knows what the hell is out there. I probably would have dialed 911 first to let them know what was happening before I went to investigate. No knock raids, Banging on peoples door in the middle of the night without identifying yourself, SWAT raids on the wrong address. All this has caused a lot of people to die needlessly at the hands of cops. I'm not going to sit by and not do what I can to expose these unnecessary deaths. What difference does it make who the source of the story is, when both liberal and conservative sites report the same incident, with the same facts. So you want me to wait until a Cop is convicted? That's a funny one, how many cops have you seen convicted of killing the wrong person. It usually end up with them on a paid leave of absence, with maybe a slap on the wrist, after all "they were afraid for the lives". That's all they have to say and they walk.
OK, if you are going to diagnose me, I'll return the favor:
Muggs you remind me of some starry eyed young Rock and Roll groupie, except the object of you passion is cops. You seem to think they are superhuman and incapable of making mistakes. I think maybe you tried to become a cop, but couldn't make the team.
And if I am paranoid about the US becoming a police state, then so are millions of other Americans including Bawanna. So you don't see us becoming a police state, but you do see us sliding into socialism, That just screams police state as the majority of Americans are not going to take that crap. And it's not the Police I fear so much as the DHS and other federal agencies, even the EPA has a SWAT team now. I don't know what the hell is up with that. I guess they are going to come out and kill you if you fill in a mud puddle that a duck swam in once.
Get up to date Muggs, this isn't the 60's anymore and we are not living in Mayberry. As far as conspiracies go, more and more they are turning out NOT to be conspiracies, but the truth. Everyone laughed at the FEMA camps, until they were found to actually exist. That's where many of the people that lost their homes during that superstorm Sandy ended up. But one has to have an open mind to look into these conspiracies, and consider the possibility that they may be true. You seem to think I just automatically buy into them without doing any research. At least I don't just dismiss it as BS because I don't like it or it doesn't appear in my little book of "facts".
I've watched COPS, and was not impressed. If I want to see citizen's being abused by police all I have to do is look at some news sites. I think half the stuff they film is set up beforehand. Who cares if they knock around some trailer trash and hookers and drunks anyway.
I think it's better to be a little paranoid, and wonder what the hell is happening in secret labs around the world, and what tricks the govt. might have up their sleeve for us, than to stick my head in the sand and pretend it's still the 50's and 60's. For all your tough talk about giving the Swat team that arrives to confiscate your guns the lead first, I bet when you see what is waiting outside for you if you resist, you will quietly turn over your guns, unless you decide to go out in a blaze of glory, which won't last very long, and will end up with you in a body bag. Tell me how much you admire cops then. I admit that cops have a tough job, and they just want to make it home at the end of their shifts, I wouldn't want the job. But I think some are getting a little trigger happy, like in the link a couple posts above. I'd bet money they hadn't been on the force very long, it seems that the younger the cop, the more likely he is to shoot first, and ask questions later. I don't see in the story from the link above where the cops ever did identify themselves, or order the man to drop his weapon. Nope they just see a gun and blow the guy away. They too will get off by saying they feared for their lives and get a nice paid leave of absence while the case is under review.
Sorry Muggs, but I think you lost this round. And say what you will about me, I don't really give a damn what you think about me, or anything else. Not that I am mad at you or anything, I just don't care. I live to make my self happy, not to please others, (except for my kids) especially people I don't even know. Plus it's really none of my business what others think about me.

[berettabone]

Sorry for the interruption.................I have to side with both of you, because good points were made, BUT, personally, I think that if the common man knew what was going on behind the scenes of this good ole U.S.A......whether it concerns law enforcement, DEA, EPA, our gov't etc.,..................It would make your head spin, or worse. Whenever the human race is involved, bad things can and do happen. Law enforcement is no different. They are human beings, just like everyone else. If you could have all law enforcement people, have the same personalities, you may see less of the bad. But since all human beings are different, there lies the problem. Different decisions are made by different personalities, with sometimes good results, sometimes bad. Not even factoring in the legal side.

[TheTman]

berettabone, when you say if we knew what was going on behind the scenes in the USA, it would make our heads spin. I believe you have a Bingo with that statement. That is one of the reasons I'm into conspiracy theories. To get ideas and clues on what goes on behind the scenes, in Government, The Entertainment Industry, various large businesses, like Monsanto and their genetically modified food they produce and we consume, and The New World Order/Illuminati/The Bankster Cartel/ or whatever you want to call it. (Basically the Super Rich of the world), that want to control everything. You can look up how countries have been manipulated into wars, not that most articles come out and say it, although some do, but by connecting the dots from one action to the next that are in the chain of events that starts the war. All this for the sake of increasing the fortunes of the Rothschilds and their cronies. They make fortunes financing both sides of a war, through their various subsidiaries in each country, selling munitions, and all the other wartime supplies.
It really sickens me that millions of people die, so that these Banksters can make a nice huge profit from their manipulations. They are firmly entrenched in the USA, being the major stockholders of the Federal Reserve, hiding their involvement by having corporations they own being the actual stockholders. Having the power to control our economy, and cause depressions, recessions, or inflations by their manipulation of interest rates gives them enormous power to influence our Politicians. Some say they are the puppet masters of the Presidents and the top Politicians. Some accuse them of selecting our presidents years in advance and groom them for the office they will eventually hold. And that they control which politicians get voted into office. And that the voting booth is nothing but a scam designed to make us think we have some control over elections. The selecting of politicians, has not been proven enough that I totally believe it, but I do consider it a possibility. They do have a lot of input into what our Government does. They want us disarmed, and turned into a socialist state, and look where we are headed. The ultimate goal, is a one world Government with them in control, with a one world religion, that will most likely be Luciferian. since that is their religion. They have to disarm us before they can go much farther, as that would most likely spark another civil war if we have the power to resist such a takeover. Politicians warned us since the country was created to not let such a thing as the Federal Reserve be created, but Woodrow Wilson snuck it in while most of congress was on Christmas break. He kept enough of his cronies in town, to open Congress, pass the legislation, and then close it and head home for the holidays.
For a peek into their world, the movie Eyes Wide Shut, gives a pretty good look into what goes on at their devil worship parties/orgies.
As for conspiracy theories, take the MK-Ultra mind control programs, where information has been leaking out for awhile now. but the program has reportedly been in place since the late '50's or early '60's. If a 10th of what I've seen on that is real, then that is one scary program, ran by some very sick Dr. Mengele types, under CIA control so that it's kept quiet. The most disturbing part that they take children who are basically sold to the CIA, or gain custody of abused children (sexually or physically) who already have some of the characteristics the CIA wants, and abuse them so that they form "compartments" in their mind, (many abused children already have these compartments) where they store the memories of the abuses. Their mind does this for them, so that they are able to function somewhat normally. Once the compartments are formed, they can be "programmed" to do various things, with no control over their own actions once they are "activated". This allegedly has been used to create "Super Soldiers", couriers, people with psychic abilities, and all manner of things. One of the most disturbing videos on the topic is Cathy O'Brien's story at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqv3N7pB_JI This is a 2 hour video, but the horrors she talks about draw you in, and the 2 hours go by very quickly. It's just so horrible, it's like a bad car wreck that you can't help but look at as you drive by.
I just googled MK-Ultra and got 29 pages of results. I searched YouTube on it, and got back almost 40 pages of videos that reference it in one way or another. (although many of the videos were duplicates of other videos in the list) Wikipedia even has a page on it at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
so is this a conspiracy theory as it's been called or is there more too it? There sure seems to be quite a bit of information for it to be just a conspiracy theory. Another concern is that they take the information, and use it to program us while we watch TV as some people allege. Again, I don't know if that has any truth or not, but there sure seems to be some strange things on TV these days. Sorry for the book. Sometimes it takes quite a few words to explain things I am checking out.

[TheTman]

I got to thinking about the Banksters selecting and grooming our presidents. How was Bill Clinton a dirt poor southern boy, able to attend Oxford and Yale and Georgetown universities, While Obummer was educated at Columbia and the Harvard law school. Someone may have had big plans for these two to get them educated at such prestigious schools. But I must admit that all this is just my own conspiracy theory. I just wonder about how they made it to these schools, and who paid for it. They say Clinton made it with scholarships, while who knows where Obummer got the finances.

[muggsy]

If any of you think that we live in a police state you should talk to someone who actually lived in a police state. My grandparents were from Ukraine and Czechoslovakia. They told me stories that would make your hair stand on end. You people have no idea just how good you have it. Do any of you have any relatives who were tortured and blinded for making statements against the government? Were any of your relatives bayoneted on the public square for "crimes against the state"? Obesity is a problem in this country. Millions of people were starved to death by the Russians in the Ukraine. Police state? You people have no idea of what a real police state is.

[TheTman]

Muggsy, I think I overreacted and would like to apologize over that starry eyed groupie comment and some other stuff I said, that was uncalled for. It seems you feel free to judge me and the way I think, so I just fired one back. Maybe we should leave the personal attacks out our discussion or arguments or whatever they are.
I think people have a good idea what a REAL police state is like, and that we are afraid that is what Obummer has in store for us, if he is successful in ever disarming us. We still at least have the illusion of freedom. But it seems they try and take away our freedom all the time. You can't hunt or fish to feed your family without a license. No license would not stop me from poaching a deer to feed my kids if they were going hungry. Seems like everything we purchase is regulated by the Govt. From what light bulbs we can purchase, to our toilets flushing capacity, to even our showerheads.
Now they are talking about setting up TSA roadstops on the highways to check for contraband. Maybe we aren't total police state yet, but we may be headed there if we don't get this crap stopped. And how far down the police state path have we gone? Warrantless searches, police invading homes without a warrant. Our forfathers fought hard for freedom, and we sit back and watch them taken away one by one. And all we do is gripe about in on our computers, to a group that for the most part feels the same way. They went to war over a 2 cent tax on tea. Today, it's hard to think of something that ISN'T taxed. After Katrina, and the Boston Bombing, we got a good taste of the Police state in action. I didn't like what I saw. Especially after Katrina. With the door to door gun confiscation, and the officers order to shoot anyone that resisted. People that whose houses were high and dry being disarmed and forced out of their homes. I will never lose the memory of that 200lb cop tackling that 67 year old 4 foot nothing 90 lb woman and breaking some teeth and hurting her pretty bad, because she showed then she had a pistol for self defense. Any one of them could have simply grabbed her wrist and took the pistol, there was no need to tackle her, but that is the mentality of some of the cops we deal with. And the big show of force after the Boston Bombing, and more warrantless searches. I think maybe that was a little bit of theatrics to show us what they could muster up in a very short time, to deal with any group that might get ideas of a new revolution.
The officers following those orders, would most likely do anything they were told to do, including firing on fellow Americans that might organize and protest the invasion. I believe that is what is behind the big purge of top brass in the Military, anyone that values the constitution over what Barry tells them to do is out of there. Their spy programs probably have some kind of dirt on everyone from the top brass, to Congress and the Supreme Court. And I don't think they would hesitate to leak some damaging information if someone refuses to play along.
Once again: I am not anti cop, I am anti ABUSIVE cop, and anti Trigger Happy cop. And anti "Just start shooting, don't mind that bystanders may be hit" cops. Big difference.

[muggsy]

Obama is a punk. Nothing to fear. What you saw in Boston was a police action, not a police state. When the government confiscates all of our guns then you can call it a police state. There's nothing for which you need to apologize to me. I wasn't offended. In Ohio you can hunt and fish on your own land without a license. You only need a license on state waters or when fishing or hunting on property that you don't own. What occurred after Katrina is called Marshal Law and it's perfectly legal when the Governor declares a state of emergency. If you don't like the law then work to change the law.

[Bawanna]

I think your two should continue to poke and jab, kind of quiet around here lately and this could be positively entertaining.

By the way Obama is a punk but be afraid, be very very afraid.

I don't fly anymore, not giving him a chance to take me out that way.

[TheTman]

Another woman shot and killed during a botched drug raid: http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/16/un...e-during-raid/ I won't raise a stink this time since they did find heroin and weapons in the home. A cop's gun supposedly fired at the same time a flash-bang device exploded in the home. I do find it a bit strange the cop that fired the fatal shot says he didn't even know his gun had went off. You'd think he would have noticed the recoil, or the slide cycling or something. And of course he should not have had his finger on the trigger if he didn't have a clear target he was going to destroy. Also a bit strange the shot just happened to hit the woman in the head. Oh well, another junkie is off the streets - maybe.
We don't know her side of the story, and never will. Maybe her boyfriend left the stuff there and she was unaware of them. Doubtful, but could happen. Also the police said they expected to find a large cache of drugs in the house, and from what I've read about drug raids, it seems that when large amounts of drugs are involved, there are usually some pretty mean and criminal oriented men involved. There is a possibility that drug dealers were using her as a drug mule, and storing things in her house she was unaware of. As I doubt a mom in a trailer house is going to have money to buy large amounts of drugs. Perhaps she wasn't a drug user at all, and was being used. I'm just giving her the benefit of the doubt. But I am thinking that the big dealer got away, or was tipped off, and left the scene before the raid. Too many unanswered questions remain for me to call it one way or the other. Like did she have needle tracks? What drugs were found in her system during the autopsy and things like that.

[berettabone]

If any of you think that we live in a police state you should talk to someone who actually lived in a police state. My grandparents were from Ukraine and Czechoslovakia. They told me stories that would make your hair stand on end. You people have no idea just how good you have it. Do any of you have any relatives who were tortured and blinded for making statements against the government? Were any of your relatives bayoneted on the public square for "crimes against the state"? Obesity is a problem in this country. Millions of people were starved to death by the Russians in the Ukraine. Police state? You people have no idea of what a real police state is.

I fully understand what you are trying to convey...............I have friends from Serbia, so believe me, I understand. You should never use the word "you" when describing others. I certainly understand how good "I" have it here in the U.S. Don't group everyone into the same category, there may be others who don't feel the same way, which by the way, is their right.

[berettabone]

If any of you think that we live in a police state you should talk to someone who actually lived in a police state. My grandparents were from Ukraine and Czechoslovakia. They told me stories that would make your hair stand on end. You people have no idea just how good you have it. Do any of you have any relatives who were tortured and blinded for making statements against the government? Were any of your relatives bayoneted on the public square for "crimes against the state"? Obesity is a problem in this country. Millions of people were starved to death by the Russians in the Ukraine. Police state? You people have no idea of what a real police state is.

Also, I see that you're from the Midwest like myself. Some like to use the words "police state". Come visit my neighborhood, I like to call it " the Gustapo".

[TheTman]

Actually it's Martial law, not Marshall law. The Louisiana Constitution has no provision for declaring Martial Law, so it could not have been in effect after Katrina. Even though some police and politicians were declaring Martial law had been invoked. They were doing so without any law authorizing it. Therefore their statements were disinformation and illegal. The following articles are where I got the info that Martial law is not addressed in the Louisiana Constitution:
http://www.propublica.org/nola/story...ricane-Katrina
and:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_t...was_used_in_US



From: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...rtial_law.html
The Katrina relief effort includes military assistance, but it is not martial law. National Guard units are acting under the direction of governors, and federal troops are providing humanitarian relief. Neither of these violates Posse Comitatus. While martial law has not been imposed, a state of emergency has been declared in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida, signaling that some civil liberties, such as the right to congregate, may be limited because of extreme conditions.

[muggsy]

I knew it was Martial Law. Just a momentary brain fart. I'll bow to your research on Louisana Law, but you have to admit these were not ordinary circumstances.

On the issue of not being able to hunt or fish without a license that it's something that the sportsmen requested of the government. I can't speak for all states but in Ohio unregulated market hunting and commercial fishing caused the extinction and near extinction of several species of fish and game. The sportsmen requested that the Ohio Division of Wildlife be established and that hunting and fishing be regulated. All funding of the O.D.O.W. comes from license fees and fines, and is supplemented from taxes on sporting goods and ammunition under the Pittman Robinson and Wallop Breaux Acts. That's far from being an indicator that we live in a police state.
Obama tried his hand at getting anti-gun legislation passed and had his hand slapped. And don't forget any tyrannical politician can be removed from office with as little as 36 grains of lead. Our founding fathers saw to that.