No-Knock raid ends in tragedy. Cop killer not indicted

[LT Drebin]

And you apparently have not been paying suitable attention lately with many officers across the country being criminally charged. Please check it out and educate yourself.

Maybe you're the one needing some remedial education there, LZ:

The eight Southern California police officers who mistakenly fired more than 100 shots at a car being driven by two women during a manhunt for suspected cop-killer Christopher Dorner last year will return to the field, officials now say.

Although both the chief of the Los Angeles Police Department and a civilian oversight board agree that eight LAPD officers violated official policy during the one-sided shootout in Torrance, CA last February 7, an internal memorandum obtained by members of the media on Wednesday reveal that those cops will continue to work the streets of Southern California.

Awesome accountability there.

[Longitude Zero]

It is called the benefit of the doubt. Having seen it first hand I guarantee that citizens are given the benefit EVERY DAY millions of times across the fruited plain. You want citizens to get that benefit and then you carp when a police officer is given that same benefit of the doubt. Inconsistency is the hobgoblin of uneducated minds. Until then I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post, otherwise my time is being wasted.


As to your username have you ever earned that or any rank or did you just claim it?

[mva1985]

The Ohio State University received an MRAP type vehicle not to long ago.... My question what for?

[LT Drebin]

It is called the benefit of the doubt. Having seen it first hand I guarantee that citizens are given the benefit EVERY DAY millions of times across the fruited plain. You want citizens to get that benefit and then you carp when a police officer is given that same benefit of the doubt. Inconsistency is the hobgoblin of uneducated minds. Until then I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post, otherwise my time is being wasted.


As to your username have you ever earned that or any rank or did you just claim it?

1st: Remember a few posts up where I said police circle the wagons instead of taking responsibility? Thanks for proving my point.

2nd: Most "every day" citizens aren't pumping over 100 rounds into the vehicle of 2 ladies, who were just delivering newspapers.

3rd: You get less "benefit of the doubt" when your mistake could land somebody on a slab in the mortuary.

4th: LT Drebin was a character from the Naked Gun. One of the best slapstick movies of all time.

And last, but not least, and not that it's any of your business, but I was an officer in the US military. However, I'll just rely on the Bill of Rights as my justification for calling things as I see them.

[knkali]

1st: Remember a few posts up where I said police circle the wagons instead of taking responsibility? Thanks for proving my point.

2nd: Most "every day" citizens aren't pumping over 100 rounds into the vehicle of 2 ladies, who were just delivering newspapers.

3rd: You get less "benefit of the doubt" when your mistake could land somebody on a slab in the mortuary.

4th: LT Drebin was a character from the Naked Gun. One of the best slapstick movies of all time.

And last, but not least, and not that it's any of your business, but I was an officer in the US military. However, I'll just rely on the Bill of Rights as my justification for calling things as I see them.

LT:
more people are killed by doctors every year than by the police. In a profession where the stakes are high, any mistake can be catastrophic.
Do doctors "circle the wagons" when stuff happens?


LT: What is your position here? I am not sure if I got it correctly.

[Longitude Zero]

LT:
more people are killed by doctors every year than by the police. In a profession where the stakes are high, any mistake can be catastrophic.
Do doctors "circle the wagons" when stuff happens?


LT: What is your position here? I am not sure if I got it correctly.

Yes doctors do. In many states you cannot successfully sue a doctor unless 2 or more physicians in that jurisdiction swear to an affidavit of negligence. If you think cops circle the wagons Drebin you are highly uneducated about the tight knit ring of secrecy in medicine. it makes the mafias O'merta look like a pack of chatty Kathies.

[TheTman]

I wish I never started this thread. I'm not sure where it took the turn to the topics it has. I'm not sure why LZ feels the need to defend cops out of his jurisdiction, but I think that is asking an awful lot of him. Of course if he volunteers the info that's his business.


I'm thinking about asking the Mods to close this thread, it's gotten far away from the OP, and turned into something else, with too much bickering and probably causing hard feelings.


Any objections to closing this thread?

[knkali]

none here but I think out of respect, LZ should have a say in that.

[TheTman]

That sounds fair. LZ, do you want to continue with this thread, or make a closing statement and then have it closed?
It seems like a good stopping point, most things have been hashed and rehashed, and I don't see any point in continuing.

[LT Drebin]

LT:
more people are killed by doctors every year than by the police. In a profession where the stakes are high, any mistake can be catastrophic.
Do doctors "circle the wagons" when stuff happens?

Yes, they do it too. LOL But honestly, we're not talking about medical malpractice and trying to draw parallels is difficult.

LT: What is your position here? I am not sure if I got it correctly.

That no-knock raids are out of control and that local law enforcement shouldn't be militarized.

[LT Drebin]

If you think cops circle the wagons Drebin you are highly uneducated about the tight knit ring of secrecy in medicine. it makes the mafias O'merta look like a pack of chatty Kathies.

I freely admit that the medical community also does it. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't justify the police doing it.

Some people get away with murder. Would we then argue that the people we do catch shouldn't be prosecuted because somebody else got away with it? I think we can all agree that wouldn't make sense and neither does saying doctors do it too.

[knkali]

Yes, they do it too. LOL But honestly, we're not talking about medical malpractice and trying to draw parallels is difficult.




That no-knock raids are out of control and that local law enforcement shouldn't be militarized.

Well we drew some very important parallels without too many difficulties:
1) a death is still a death by LEO or by MD and there is no LOL regarding this fact.


2) That professions that deal in life or death matters tend to protect their own because they have to in order to continue doing work that actually helps many more people than it hurts. Otherwise they would become paralyzed and stifled.


3) There are punitive measures in place for both doctors and LEOs, Malpractice premiums /denials or Sate regulatory boards or IA reviews and well as outright litigation for both professions.


I think there are parallels.




I also feel that militarization of the police can be fraught with problems but you are not looking at the big clinical picture--reality. Militarization of the police is a symptom of a sickened society. A reaction to a plethora of infectious agents attacking decency. You can quell the symptom but unless you cure the disease, you are not dealing with the problem and possibly worsening the prognosis. What these infectious agents are would require another thread to discuss. Hint, look at the title of this sub forum. In fact, in that discourse, we probably would find a lot of common ground.


Do you really feel that law enforcement agencies are pushing for these no knock policies? I bet if you sat down and asked them how they feel about it, they would rather not do it at all. It is inherently more dangerous than their already dangerous job entails and ultimately not solving much except maintaining the status quo so politicking can be business as usual.. Would you want to do a job that can kill you and ultimately feel that it really isn't making a difference only to be possibly legally and financially crucified for doing it?


Another parallel. Do you think that doctors want to see more patients for less financial incentive all the while possibly jeopardizing their quality of care due to the increased load of patients they are treating? That is what the ACA will do. IOWs more risk without any possibility of protection from being sued for malpractice or chastised for compromising the Standard of Care so that ACA political football can be successful?


Many parallels......professions where the public's life is on the line, police, pilots, doctors et al ... take heat from all sides and bent and twisted to do politic's bidding. These professions also can be the proverbial canary in the coal mine and be the first warning signs that something is wrong.


I wont bang my gong anymore. I noticed that you(LT) have a low post count. I want to welcome you to the forum. I am looking forward to productive, provocative, and possibly jocular exchanges in the future.

[LT Drebin]

Well we drew some very important parallels without too many difficulties:

Actually, you didn't. What you tried to argue is that 2 wrongs somehow make a right.

1) a death is still a death by LEO or by MD and there is no LOL regarding this fact.

I've never known a gun to heal anybody, you? In contrast, when a doctor treats a patient, the expectation is not that the patient will be injured or die. The same cannot be said when the police escalate.

2) That professions that deal in life or death matters tend to protect their own because they have to in order to continue doing work that actually helps many more people than it hurts. Otherwise they would become paralyzed and stifled.

I reject the idea that keeping irresponsible doctors and/or officers employed is somehow critical to normal operations. In fact, I'll argue that those placed in positions of power and responsibility actually have a duty to maintain higher standards than the average Joe. Additionally, as the abuses and deaths mount, you undermine the entire profession as the general populace distrust the institution itself with good reason.

3) There are punitive measures in place for both doctors and LEOs, Malpractice premiums /denials or Sate regulatory boards or IA reviews and well as outright litigation for both professions.

There are, but cops skate a lot.

You can quell the symptom but unless you cure the disease, you are not dealing with the problem and possibly worsening the prognosis.

So how does a small town PD having an armored vehicle cure the disease of terrorism?

[knkali]

Actually, you didn't. What you tried to argue is that 2 wrongs somehow make a right.



I've never known a gun to heal anybody, you? In contrast, when a doctor treats a patient, the expectation is not that the patient will be injured or die. The same cannot be said when the police escalate.



I reject the idea that keeping irresponsible doctors and/or officers employed is somehow critical to normal operations. In fact, I'll argue that those placed in positions of power and responsibility actually have a duty to maintain higher standards than the average Joe. Additionally, as the abuses and deaths mount, you undermine the entire profession as the general populace distrust the institution itself with good reason.



There are, but cops skate a lot.



So how does a small town PD having an armored vehicle cure the disease of terrorism?

1)OK two wrongs make a right. I cannot begin to counter that statement.


2) Guns don't heal and neither do doctors. Patients heal. Doctors and LEOs(with guns) provide an environment so that beneficial things can occur. Sometimes patients and people die so that the better whole is realized. Sad, but welcome to the real world.


Irresponsible doctors, pilots and LEO's should never be employed nor was I making that argument. I am looking at bigger pictures rather than individual's action(s). Policies and trends not individuals. Maybe I wasn't clear on my points.....


Cops skate a lot? Really? OK




A small town PD having an armored vehicle doesn't fix the disease of terrorism. THAT IS my point. Problems that are seemingly to be solved by the militarization of the police are much bigger problems. militarization is a political knee jerk solution that the police are probably forced to do and does nothing to solve the intended problem. Did you actually read what I wrote?