Arguing with a liberal

[chrish]

Government isn't supposed to be there to help the individual, but rather to promote the general welfare of all.

That's the problem! Promote <> Provide. Provide for the Common Defense. Promote the General Welfare. Somewhere, somehow, progressives lost the 'P' page from their dictionary where 'promote' resides.

[knkali]

Government isn't supposed to be there to help the individual, but rather to promote the general welfare of all.

The G's responsibility through Congress is outlined in the Constitution Article 1 section 8. Muggs, can I get that's a fact jack?
Its pretty straight forward.
Article 1, Section 8
Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States


Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States


Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes


Clause 4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States
Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures


Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States


Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads


Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries


Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court


Clause 10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations


Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water


Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years


Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy


Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces


Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions


>Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress


Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings


Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof

[tv_racin_fan]

That's the problem! Promote <> Provide. Provide for the Common Defense. Promote the General Welfare. Somewhere, somehow, progressives lost the 'P' page from their dictionary where 'promote' resides.

Actually that is the issue.

Article 1 Section 8 starts like this... "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and PROVIDE for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

They have taken that to mean that they are supposed to PROVIDE FOR the general welfare and the people allowed them to do so without thought as to where that could lead. It has led us to the state we are in now and it can and will go much farther if the people don't put a stop to it.

[chrish]

Actually that is the issue.

Article 1 Section 8 starts like this... "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and PROVIDE for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

They have taken that to mean that they are supposed to PROVIDE FOR the general welfare and the people allowed them to do so without thought as to where that could lead. It has led us to the state we are in now and it can and will go much farther if the people don't put a stop to it.

Right, but that's an age old debate I suppose. Preamble or article 1 section 8. What was the intention? One says promote, one doesn't but previously states provides in conjunction w/ defense. Ah, to be able to ask Madison. But, then that pesky little word 'general' is in BOTH places, so we KNOW what they meant. What our federal government has done since then was not the original intent.


If if weren't for the 17th Amendment, we might not be here. But once the states lost any control whatsoever in oversight of the federales, beginning of game over, we've had mob rule since 1913.

[CC Hoosier]

Generalizing about liberals or conservatives is just wrong. I'm a liberal and gun owner. I love guns. I love to reload my own ammo. I believe in capital punishment. I'm not a tree hugger. I believe in capitalism "balanced correctly" with socialism. I believe in "liberal" economics but I believe in working hard when the opportunity is there. I believe in Medicare, Social Security, Obamacare (ACA), and progressive taxation. I believe in thorough firearm background checks to filter out the crazies. I DON'T believe in gun-free zones and I feel the NRA is just another political arm of the GOP. Politics, like religion, can be argued to no avail FOREVER....

[Longitude Zero]

Generalizing about liberals or conservatives is just wrong. I'm a liberal and gun owner. I love guns. I love to reload my own ammo. I believe in capital punishment. I'm not a tree hugger. I believe in capitalism "balanced correctly" with socialism. I believe in "liberal" economics but I believe in working hard when the opportunity is there. I believe in Medicare, Social Security, Obamacare (ACA), and progressive taxation. I believe in thorough firearm background checks to filter out the crazies. I DON'T believe in gun-free zones and I feel the NRA is just another political arm of the GOP. Politics, like religion, can be argued to no avail FOREVER....

Agree with all except Obamacare is an abomination and progressive taxation is plain wrong. I support a percentage flat tax of say 10%-15% for everybody applied not on your income but on your purchases. Buy less pay less tax. The NRA is NOT an arm of the Republican party it is an arm of the Conservative viewpoint. Do you know that the NRA gives Harry Reid an A+ rating and he is one of the worst politicians in DC.

[CC Hoosier]

Actually I didn't know Harry Reid has an A+ rating with the NRA. My point is this: Gun Ownership has nothing to do with politics. Why do conservatives have to hijack the 2nd amendment and claim it for their own to "protect." Why is climate change political? These are issues that "should" have nothing to do with politics. Our 2-party system is out to divide the people and it has worked out beautifully.

[berettabone]

Actually I didn't know Harry Reid has an A+ rating with the NRA. My point is this: Gun Ownership has nothing to do with politics. Why do conservatives have to hijack the 2nd amendment and claim it for their own to "protect." Why is climate change political? These are issues that "should" have nothing to do with politics. Our 2-party system is out to divide the people and it has worked out beautifully.

Most libs don't pay attention to the important things................

[b4uqzme]

Generalizing about liberals or conservatives is just wrong. I'm a liberal and gun owner. I love guns. I love to reload my own ammo. I believe in capital punishment. I'm not a tree hugger. I believe in capitalism "balanced correctly" with socialism. I believe in "liberal" economics but I believe in working hard when the opportunity is there. I believe in Medicare, Social Security, Obamacare (ACA), and progressive taxation. I believe in thorough firearm background checks to filter out the crazies. I DON'T believe in gun-free zones and I feel the NRA is just another political arm of the GOP. Politics, like religion, can be argued to no avail FOREVER....

It's just that "generally" we tend to encounter such tactics when we enter into a discussion with someone of a liberal perspective. The subject member was particularly aggressive. I did not mean to disparage all liberals. I simply meant to remind my conservative friends to take the high road.

At least we agree on some points.

Question though. How do we get these issues and differences out in the open if we are not allowed to generalize?

[b4uqzme]

Actually I didn't know Harry Reid has an A+ rating with the NRA. My point is this: Gun Ownership has nothing to do with politics. Why do conservatives have to hijack the 2nd amendment and claim it for their own to "protect." Why is climate change political? These are issues that "should" have nothing to do with politics. Our 2-party system is out to divide the people and it has worked out beautifully.

1. Because the 2A is under attack and conservatives seem to be the only ones stepping up to defend it. And it's pretty clear the left are the ones attacking. I personally welcome anyone into the good fight to protect the 2A.
2. Because politicians use climate change as a tool to forward their political agenda.
3. Yes, division is bad. Currently the left seems to be more intent on splitting America. The right is mostly interested in just leaving everyone alone...even if they are on the other side. Example: no gun owner that I know is committed to making everyone carry a firearm. (Kennesaw GA excepted).

Liberalism takes a liberal view of the Constitution in order to advance their agenda.
Conservatism seeks to conserve the Constitution as it was clearly written.
(paraphrase - credit Alfonso Rachel)

[b4uqzme]

.....Why do conservatives have to hijack the 2nd amendment and claim it for their own to "protect." ....

Oh, and thanks for the generalization about conservatives...I don't mind at all.

[knkali]

Agree with all except Obamacare is an abomination and progressive taxation is plain wrong. I support a percentage flat tax of say 10%-15% for everybody applied not on your income but on your purchases. Buy less pay less tax. The NRA is NOT an arm of the Republican party it is an arm of the Conservative viewpoint. Do you know that the NRA gives Harry Reid an A+ rating and he is one of the worst politicians in DC.

When I started to read that you agreed with all, my world started to implode. By the time I got to the end of your post, I removed the 45 ACP 1911 from the side of my head.

[CC Hoosier]

Agree with all except Obamacare is an abomination and progressive taxation is plain wrong. I support a percentage flat tax of say 10%-15% for everybody applied not on your income but on your purchases. Buy less pay less tax. The NRA is NOT an arm of the Republican party it is an arm of the Conservative viewpoint. Do you know that the NRA gives Harry Reid an A+ rating and he is one of the worst politicians in DC.

http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/...un_Control.htm Harry only scored a B. Some dems scored an A+, however. "Liberal" does NOT equal "Gun Control."

[DT Guy]

http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/...un_Control.htm Harry only scored a B. Some dems scored an A+, however. "Liberal" does NOT equal "Gun Control."

Pelosi
Schumer
Boxer
Obama
Kennedy (Teddy, thankfully no longer in play)

So if liberal =/= gun control, what would explain that the second amendment's biggest foes are....wait for it.....leftists?

How do you explain gun control being a plank in the Democratic platform?

You are displaying cognitive dissonance; when one strongly held belief (liberalism) runs afoul of another (gun rights), IMHO.

Denial is a typical response. But yes, the enemies of gun rights are overwhelmingly liberals; sorry.


Larry

[John222]

Generalizing about liberals or conservatives is just wrong. I'm a liberal and gun owner. I love guns. I love to reload my own ammo. I believe in capital punishment. I'm not a tree hugger. I believe in capitalism "balanced correctly" with socialism. I believe in "liberal" economics but I believe in working hard when the opportunity is there. I believe in Medicare, Social Security, Obamacare (ACA), and progressive taxation. I believe in thorough firearm background checks to filter out the crazies. I DON'T believe in gun-free zones and I feel the NRA is just another political arm of the GOP. Politics, like religion, can be argued to no avail FOREVER....

Your wise beyond you years. I was a Rush Limbaugh ditto head for several years before the vail was lifted and i seen a republican party full of double talking jackels.