It Figures

[muggsy]

I have no misconceptions concerning Obama. He's a liberal progressive socialist bent on fundamentally changing our free capitalistic economic and governmental systems to one of a socialist state. That has no bearing what-so-ever on my position on Sandy Hook. Sandy Hook is a good example of never letting a good tragedy go to waste. That doesn't necessarily mean that the tragedy was staged. Bad things happen to good people. Adam Lanza wasn't the first mentally ill person to commit a horrendous act and he won't be the last.

[SlowBurn]

It Figures

I really don't plan to get dragged into the bottomless pit of debating conspiracy theories. They can be, and have been. debunked conclusively without having any effect whatsoever on true believers, JFK, RFK, MLK assassinations, 9/11, etc ad nauseum, somebody is always selling and others are still buying.

What I will repeat is what Muggsy said earlier. If you can't escape that spiderweb you have no hope of persuading anyone of your more reasonable positions.

If someone says "Sandy Hook shows we need more gun control":

1) you can ask what specifically, then point out that none of the measures would have prevented Sandy Hook or reduced its effects. For example limiting magazine sizes would just have meant the creep would swap mags more often.

2) You can point out that these mass atrocities mostly happen where guns are banned, like schools, and maybe if at least some teachers had guns the killing would have stopped much sooner, as it did in Arizona where the CEO shot the muslim who was beheading women at his former workplace, or in the Canadian Parliment where the Sergeant at Arms shot the murderer.

3... there are lots of reasonable points to be made, which is not surprising because we're right.

These points won't convince true believers in gun control, nothing will. But bystanders or people who haven't thought about it or haven't already made up their minds might see we're right, and that can be important.

BUT ...if your response is "Sandy Hook never happened - it was a hoax perpetrated by Obama, the CIA and the major media including Fox," the undecideds will immediately have the impression that you, and others who are in favor of TRTBA and the 2A, are simply fringe crazies who probably shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a firearm.

I don't feel that way myself. I'm friends with some very responsible gun owners who happen to suffer from conspiracy theory sickness. It doesn't stop them from functioning and they're good people, and I'm glad they carry. But I cringe when they reveal their thoughts on this, especially during discussions of gun rights. I'm begging you, if you can't clear that fog out of your head, at least be quiet about it when discussing gun control.

Thank you.

[muggsy]

+1 Slow Burn. I've heard it said that it is far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Believing in wild conspiracy theories does nothing to enhance the pro-gun position. If Sandy Hook was a hoax it accomplished nothing.

[knkali]

I don't want to have any animosity towards or received from anyone on this forum, but I would argue strongly against this train of thought.

I would argue the exact opposite would make even more sense. Those easily duped, that can flat out ignore factual information presented right in their faces, while eating the utterly ridiculous anti-gun government/media stew are an even bigger problem.

If anyone can watch this video, and it is extremely long, but very well documented, and still believe this absurd hoax, well then they are a lost cause and exactly what the government expects of us. Most live up to those expectations sadly. Anyone interested, but gets bored easily, watch it in parts if needed.

Sandy Hook hoax: Lights out, game over, fat lady sang, chess mate...whatever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TgIbwaBb_U

great link.

[89grand]

+1 Slow Burn. I've heard it said that it is far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Believing in wild conspiracy theories does nothing to enhance the pro-gun position. If Sandy Hook was a hoax it accomplished nothing.

In the end the specific hoax didn't accomplish any actual federal gun control (it wasn't for lack of trying though), but it did succeed in further gun control in two specific states. I named them earlier.

It set the tone for gun control on the federal level however, but it was merely too many politicians unwilling to risk their careers to move the agenda further. I'd call it too close for comfort and it did set off the great panic of 2013. Remember no ammo anywhere, $300 stripped AR15 lowers, $60 Pmags? I'd liken it to someone shooting at you and missing, and thinking, ahh, it's cool I didn't actually get shot so no harm done. They tried and it's almost just as bad.

How soon we forget, and this was within a month of the hoax:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...osal.html?_r=0

Setting aside all of the other ridiculousness surrounding Sandy Hook, someone just show me video of skinny, frail, little Adam Lanza arriving at the school, covered in weapons like Rambo, shooting into the entrance, and whatever else they "should" have video of since the school was recently updated with intense security, and I might rethink my stance. There is absolutely no reason to never have released any video of that...unless there isn't any. That kid went from almost retarded, unable to even tie his own shoes, to a Navy Seal like shooter with great precision, with Navy Seal like strength...that's what I'm supposed to believe? Uhhhh....OK.

[muggsy]

Believe whatever you like. You don't need Rambo like shooting skills to shoot people at close range with a semiautomatic rifle and thirty round magazines. In all probability the kids were frozen in place with fear and had nowhere to go.

[89grand]

Believe whatever you like. You don't need Rambo like shooting skills to shoot people at close range with a semiautomatic rifle and thirty round magazines. In all probability the kids were frozen in place with fear.

Well in addition to him killing nearly everyone with precision (very little if any wasted bullets I guess), he had to carry all of the crap on his person too, several handguns, and AR15 numerous loaded magazines. I'm quite a bit bigger and surely stronger than he was supposed to be, and I wouldn't want to be loaded down with all of that. He had to do a number of magazine changes too, he was pretty good with handling weapons for someone who could barely tie his shoes. I've handled a lot of firearms including the AR15 I've owned for 10 years, and I doubt I'd be all cool and calm shooting people and making smooth magazine changes.

Do you happened to know anything about the lack of video evidence of him ever being at the school? Just curious if you do because I certainly can't find any. No leaked photos, nothing. Really weird.

Just a note, I didn't say he was shooting people like Rambo, although he must have been doing that too, I said he was covered in weapons (and magazines) like Rambo, and shooting his way into the school.

[knkali]

Well in addition to him killing nearly everyone with precision (very little if any wasted bullets I guess), he had to carry all of the crap on his person too, several handguns, and AR15 numerous loaded magazines. I'm quite a bit bigger and surely stronger than he was supposed to be, and I wouldn't want to be loaded down with all of that. He had to do a number of magazine changes too, he was pretty good with handling weapons for someone who could barely tie his shoes. I've handled a lot of firearms including the AR15 I've owned for 10 years, and I doubt I'd be all cool and calm shooting people and making smooth magazine changes.

Do you happened to know anything about the lack of video evidence of him ever being at the school? Just curious if you do because I certainly can't find any. No leaked photos, nothing. Really weird.

Just a note, I didn't say he was shooting people like Rambo, although he must have been doing that too, I said he was covered in weapons (and magazines) like Rambo, and shooting his way into the school.

there are some questions that seem to not have answers.

[TheTman]

I don't talk to people much about gun control, usually their minds are made up and nothing I say will change that. I've offered to take a few shooting, and they have declined. Just a couple of my good friends are anti-gun liberals, and we just don't talk politics or shootings or anything. Most of my other friends range from believing everything is a hoax, to some that believe MSM is just a diversion to keep us off the real issues. I keep my opinions to myself for the most part in public or around folks I don't know well. I'm more of a people watcher, than I am a talker.

[89grand]

there are some questions that seem to not have answers.

Yes there are, a lot as a matter of fact. How anyone can look at all of this, and still not question it in the least is mind numbing to me.

The proof: They said so on TV, and there was video footage of cops all over the place.

The lack of proof: Everything else, and it's simply too much to even type. I'd probably reach the maximum length a post is allowed to be by the time I was only half way through.


Think about this, if you saw a bunch of cops and media types near your house, and they said a whole family was murdered at some house, you'd most likely believe it, and then go home and go about your business. If it was a hoax, they wouldn't have to pay you off too, because you believed it. The people that claim they'd have had to bribe the whole town are just reaching for BS to try and disprove the hoax, because they certainly wouldn't have to do that.

With that said, I would like to thank everyone that has kept this civil, with minimal name calling, and I hope it stays like this. I believe I've provided fairly well written, civil, and logical reasons as to why I don't believe it, and I hope everyone else involved does the same no matter the position they take. One of the things that really bugs me the most about these hoaxes is that the government gets to sit back and watch us argue over their lies and propaganda. They know most will eat up every lie their told, so long as it was on TV and supported as true by the same people that fabricated the hoax, the government.

[knkali]

I can sort of understand the ability of keeping this a secret given so many operatives with your explanation above. While I am not a hard core CT guy, I do like to perpetuate more thought into events rather than run with them on pure emotion; furthermore, a healthy scrutiny of our G at work is always a good thing. With that said, I still wonder how much of the current political unrest in the Middle East is manufactured to feed an agenda that will get the American people to do the heavy lifting.

[89grand]

I can sort of understand the ability of keeping this a secret given so many operatives with your explanation above. While I am not a hard core CT guy, I do like to perpetuate more thought into events rather than run with them on pure emotion; furthermore, a healthy scrutiny of our G at work is always a good thing. With that said, I still wonder how much of the current political unrest in the Middle East is manufactured to feed an agenda that will get the American people to do the heavy lifting.

I literally have reached a point where I believe there are more lies than truth in today's media and government. Every new story I now assume is a lie unless proven otherwise (and they generally aren't), as opposed to doing the exact opposite, which is what we "should" be able to do, but we can't. I don't want to be a CT, but they've given me no choice. I want a government I can trust, but I/we don't have that.

The lady driving crazy in DC: Lie!
Eliot Rodgers: Lie!
Sandy Hook, of course: Lie!
Boston Marathon Bombing: Lie!
Ferguson MS: Maybe not a full blown lie, but allowed to happen as it did for specific reasons!
9/11: Not at all as reported!
JFK: Not at all as reported!

It never stops and it never will it doesn't seem.

Every single event listed above (and there are a few others), and rammed down our throats via the MSM, is clouded in mystery, lack of evidence, and just flat out hard to believe explanations. Normal, real crimes, never have all of this doubt...and they also don't make the national news either.

[muggsy]

Let's see, all that you would have to bribe are the state and local police, everyone in attendance who treated the wounded at the hospital, the EMS drivers, the people at the morgue and mortuary and every man woman and child who were present at the school at the time of the shooting, and all of the members of the media including Fox News. Yeah, I can see that happening. Piece of cake. Hell, even I could fake the sounds of gun fire on the 911 call.

[89grand]

Let's see, all that you would have to bribe are the state and local police, everyone in attendance who treated the wounded at the hospital, the EMS drivers, the people at the morgue and mortuary and every man woman and child who were present at the school at the time of the shooting, and all of the members of the media including Fox News. Yeah, I can see that happening. Piece of cake. Hell, even I could fake the sounds of gun fire on the 911 call.

No no no, you're making it sound like it was real, and using all of the people that would have been involved if it were.

The whole state and local police would not have to know about this, only the few that may have went inside. Next to no EMT's did anything at all, let alone try to actually save anyone with face to face contact. I maintain there was no morgue or mortuary needed. I believe there was nearly no one at the school other than those acting their parts. Many in the media may very well have been duped too, but even Fox news is a joke. Their typical schtick is to tell me to get mad at what I already know I don't like. Nothing new there. According to a number of kids that were supposed to be there, they thought the gun fire was someone kicking a closet door. LMAO...yeah that's what an AR15 sounds like inside a building.

[TheTman]

Or threaten the lives of their loved ones. That would probably work better. It's a proven winner.