Who here believes Obama is straight up legitimate?

[ScottM]

We agree about false division, but I couldn't disagree more about (a system of) government being THE scam. Without a system of government, you have no common services, no protection from common threats, no common system of law, no national currency and no property rights other than what you and your clan can muster to take and hold. You may not have meant this, but think through that statement to its logical extension... Saying government IS the scam is tantamount to advocating anarchy.

Global history is rife with THAT configuration. Heck, in America we had more than a century of industrial-era rubber-stamps for corporations (defined as a body of interests with their own governing rules) that prevailed over disorganized used-and-abused immigrant populations. That is, until they unionized. Wanna go back to that and really get our Ayn Rand on? Or maybe go further with pre-colonial, pre-constitutional frontier life where life expectancy was in its 30s because there was not yet a foundation of law, currency, infrastructure, and regulation that commerce could rely upon. No thanks.

I assert this point because frankly is so easy to call out every government failure and call for its evisceration, and to suspect bogey men behind every corner as justification for just saying F it. It takes real skill, guts and stamina to stand up for, and contribute to a robust and open government that's inclusive and more than just a constitutional template. Our founding fathers knew this, and you can see it in their lives well after ratification.

Government is US. When WE disconnect and alienate ourselves from the grand parade, we make a conscious decision to let others control it on our behalf. Governance is supposed to be hard, and messy, because people are complicated. But without it and our participation in it, we're on our own, weaker than operating as a group, just as those industrial era immigrants did.

[89grand]

The so-called government keeps enough law and order to make the system move forward. They have to because us suckers finance it all, against our will or not.

I disagree that the government is US. It's them against us, with the appearance that we're all in this together. The government will never be us uless we take it back somehow. It was taken from us a long time ago...assuming it ever even was ours.

Politics is a game between themselves, and their puppet masters. It has nothing to do with us or the country as a whole, and what is best for us or the country is never their priority. If we benefit, it's by accident, or because what benefits us, benefits them even more.

[ppsnatcher]

Saying government IS the scam is tantamount to advocating anarchy.

If this country was going socialist, it would have happened then. it was only allowed to go socialist to the extent of some safety net programs (Soc. Sec., WPA, etc.) and reform stopped there.

And bank/GM bailouts, Obamacare? boiling frogs takes time

here's a question for ya--- why do people who make less than $250k a year want to be conservatives and reject progressive reforms that would help them in their daily lives (min. wage, medicaid, etc.) ????

Social issues/religious influence. I honestly don't think politicians work to improve anybody's situation but their own. Taking any political system seriously requires lots of faith.

How does increasing minimum wage help anybody? Double minimum wage tomorrow and I promise you the cost of everything else will increase proportionally the next day, besides progress is all about keeping wage growth at a fraction of the rate of inflation.

This thread has derailed and I feel partially responsible, sorry guys.

-the oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class shall represent and repress them

[muggsy]

Based on record corporate profits and stock market performance, as well as controlled inflation and gas prices, and unemployment levels well lower than Bush left them, one could argue he's a closet Republican! [emoji6]

Unfortunately that doesn't tell the whole story. There are millions of people who were in well paying jobs working 40+ hours per week who now are under employed in low paying jobs or who have given up entirely in trying to find a job. Figures lie and liars figure. A profitable stock market doesn't necessarily mean a good economy. Obama also increased the national debt by 10 trillion dollars since he took office. We're forced to borrow money from China just to pay the interest on the debt. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone ends up paying for everything. The people of this country will be paying for Obama's folly.

[muggsy]

The republicans learned everything that they know about creating a false dialogue from the democrats. Why we republicans hate clean air and water, women and children, blacks and homosexuals and we are ready to throw granny off the cliff. Were are racist, bigots, homophobs who don't give a damn about the little guy and are only interested in corporate profits. If you buy into that bullshit and you're a liberal progressive socialist democrat.

My grand parents came from a communist socialist country. They taught me early on never to trust anyone who didn't trust me to own a gun. It isn't the conservative republicans who want to disarm the people, it's the liberal progressive socialist democrats. Who do you think has your best interests are heart. Those you want to provide for your every need, or those who want to help you to become self sufficient? It's not too late to come of age.

[marcinstl]

pretend for a moment your in the richest family in the US, yes your last name is Walton. the bean counters call you and say that sales are off to the point where you might need to close some stores, could be the beginning of the end. what to do? the prices are rolled way back, but there's no customers. geez, what to do? customers are to poor to shop at Walmart? the end is near? one of the bean counters, a liberal big mouth, suggests getting behind the interest in raising the minimum wage so that customers(and even employees) could afford to come back and shop. another liberal strategy would be to increase the food stamp program so that customers(and employees) would be able to buy more food at Walmart. your con-servative friends at the country club will hate you, but hey, this is business.
(way back in the 1920's, my relatives in Akron, Oh. were working in the tire plant, 60 hr. week, nickel and hour. the commie union organizers were talking a dime an hour with a 40 hr. week. join the American Communist Party, unionize, share the wealth, drink and dance on Sat., buy shoes for the kids. lots of commies around Akron back in those days.)

[ppsnatcher]

We're forced to borrow money from China just to pay the interest on the debt. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone ends up paying for everything. The people of this country will be paying for Obama's folly.

This sounds similar to a third world dictator selling his country down the river. Is economics always a pyramid scheme?

[ScottM]

Gotta love how "Obama's folly" somehow includes Bush's massive war debt and the TARP program's cost, the latter of which being a direct outcome of years of conservative-led banking deregulations, particularly with mortgage-backed default swaps. 2008 is what happens when you let private enterprise exploit the public.

[89grand]

Gotta love how "Obama's folly" somehow includes Bush's massive war debt and the TARP program's cost, the latter of which being a direct outcome of years of conservative-led banking deregulations, particularly with mortgage-backed default swaps. 2008 is what happens when you let private enterprise exploit the public.

It's not Bush, Obama, Clinton or any other president. They are merely spokesman for who really runs the show. They never make any decisions on their own nor do they have the power to. They do what the people that put them there tell them to do.

All politicians really do, is try to get more power and money for themselves while repaying the rich donors that allowed them to get there in the first place. We just get to pay for all of it and go along for the ride.

I can't believe how many people still think this system works like they claim it does.

It's all a big farce. They get the country arguing amongst themselves so we don't notice that they continue to rob us blind. They are like me getting two neighbors to argue with each other outside so I can go unnoticed while I step into their houses and rob them. Government is never the solution, only the problem. Come on, it's main function is to protect the country from foreign invasion, and here we have been being invaded form Mexico for decades and they tell us straight up they won't do anything about it. They used to at least pretend they planned on doing something. They are accountable to know one but the ultra rich and powerful and there is nothing we can do about it, at least not through any standard, legal means like voting.

[ScottM]

There's a LOT in there I agree with, I really do. But I cannot agree that all is lost and we're just as well-off with Anarchy. Those of us young and able enough to be engaged should do so, and not through frustrated threats of civil unrest, but (more effectively) through participation in the process at all levels. It's really hard for me to convey to those who may have given up on collective government the challenges and benefits or participation beyond voting, but they are there!

Take local issues for example. I helped to fight against several whiney, wealthy homeowners who built beautiful places next to an airport. They knew the airport had been there since the 50s, but built their homes there anyway. Then they complained about the noise, and being attorneys, they made a huge stink about it. It paralyzed the economic development of the airport for over a decade and caused the city to lose millions in fuel and hangar revenue (not to mention commercial land development because companies couldn't be assured they'd be able to use the strip for their jets). Well, after organizing and collecting data and bringing in experts and more, we fought them back, extended the runway and build another hangar. There's more to do, but it was the right thing for the bigger community.

That, sirs, is politics at work, and you can't just whine for the sidelines about it. Focus first on local issues and SEE how your involvement with the political process and your local government is refreshingly empowering.

[Armybrat]

Based on record corporate profits and stock market performance, as well as controlled inflation and gas prices, and unemployment levels well lower than Bush left them, one could argue he's a closet Republican! [emoji6]

That's all a house of cards to anyone who has been paying attention. Printing trillions out of thin air to give to Wall Street & the unions makes the paper headlines on the economy look good, but BHO's house is built on a bed of quicksand. Kicking the can down the road just means it is going to come back & bite the ignorant voters all that much harder one of these days.

Of course he's been nothing but Bush's 3rd & 4th terms, and the masses of lemmings will read the headlines & see the video/sound bytes and think warm & fuzzy things.

{insert bigazz rolleyes emoticon here}

[getsome]

The Economists can't figure out what's going on with the U.S. economy right now because they learned in college that it's impossible to have flat inflation, low unemployment and stagnant wages....The reason for that is the Feds have been cooking the books and throwing out fake numbers for quite a while now....The real picture is that except for the recent "rigged by OPEC" oil price collapse inflation is way up, go to the grocery store if you believe we are paying the same for food as 6 years ago and thats just one item....Prices for everything went up with the price of oil the last several years but now even though oil is cheap the price for everything else remains high....The airlines and trucking companies are making a killing right now because they are still charging the same for their service as before the oil glut....

The unemployment numbers are false too, I personally know of 5 recent college graduates who can't find a job in Atlanta and there's many older folks who lost jobs back in the crunch that nobody will hire because of their age and the many new jobs the Dumbocrats like to brag about are part time jobs at something like McDonalds....

As for the Stock Market, it has nothing to do with the economy, the only reason it's doing so good is because investors cant make a profit any other way with interest rates at near zero and with the Federal Reserve pouring fake money into the bond market to keep things limping along stocks are the only money makers for investors until the coming crash...Just wait until Janet Yellen custs off the free money spigot and watch what happens to the Stock Market...It's going to get ugly.

[Armybrat]

^^^

Yeppers... exactly.

And the dumb media talking heads don't understand any of that.

[marcinstl]

"dumb media talking heads don't understand any of that." media is in the business of selling advertising by being entertaining. you aren't entertained, not amused? no market tips from Cramer? hmmph! might as well watch wrastling or the darn Daily Show.
(pass a good share of the blame back from Obama to Bush/Cheney for wars and economy. pass the economic problems back to Clinton who signed the bill repealing Glass-Stegal, which let banks become casinos. pass some foreign policy back to the b-grade actor with alzheimers for being silly in Nicaragua or LBJ for his effort to "stem communism in S.E. Asia". when Nixon was leaving, he said, "I'm not a crook". there he was, had one little chance to finally come clean and tell the truth, he could have said, We are all crooks.