Draw versus Draw and Fire

[ptoemmes]

I do not think this has been discussed at least recently and not in the context of the recent Time Magazine (down boyz and girls).

Mods - kill this is you feel the need.

Now that article was written as a result of Zimmerman-Martin, but it's not really about that nor do I want it to be.

Full article here, but you have to be a subscriber: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...110471,00.html

I live in Florida and did not fully understand the implications of this - the money excerpt to me:
"
...
One of the stranger elements in the legal landscape of such cases is that Florida law offers a strong incentive to shoot your gun once it's drawn. Even though "Stand your ground" excuses shootings with the barest of evidence, Florida punishes the crime of simply pointing a gun at someone with a mandatory minimum of three years in prison. In other words, you can point a gun and go to prison - or you can fire the gun and go free under "Stand your ground."
...
"

Now...those are the authors' words not mine and they, to me, are quite biased. Putting that aside, I think I understand the intent versus application, but that and a high priced lawyer might keep one out of jail for simply - and justifiably IMHO - drawing down and not firing in a scenario.

What say you?

Pete

[muggsy]

I'm sure that stand your ground will stand it's ground. If my gun clears its holster it's going to be fired. I never pull a gun that I don't intend to use.

[OldLincoln]

I'm not sure I agree with you muggsy. If approached by a mugger with a knife and as I draw my gun he puts his hands up and starts backing away, I don't believe I would shoot him as the threat level has dropped and he cannot really attack while backing away.

If a security camera video showed his hands in the air and backing away then I shot and killed him, I cannot see it being a favorable result with the DA. You have to assume everything is on video and act accordingly.

[chrish]

It's a very tough question to answer due to the goofy laws we live under. My hope is that my body language alone will alert any BG to my intentions without spelling it out or actually drawing. I will rotate weak side toward the attacker, move my hand into position to draw, tell them not to come any closer or I will defend myself, and then act from there if necessary. A, perfect world.

But I agree with Lincoln on this one. Draw does not always have to end in shoot. I am not suggesting using your firearm as a deterrent but if the attacker turns tail, you better not shoot them all because you have drawn. Reholster, call 911, and be honest. I will use the same language that I would have used had I needed to shoot. I was in imminent fear of my life and I drew my weapon to stop the attack. Anything further I want my lawyer to answer.

[JFootin]

IMO, if you draw on a mugger - someone who is obviously coming at you with malicious intent, and he decides to back off and flee, put your gun back in your holster and get out of there. Why call the police if no one has been attacked or shot? This is just my opinion, but people living in New York City, Chicago and other large cities have been carrying small concealed handguns for generations to protect themselves from muggers. And despite the ban on handguns in some of those cities, I'm sure that a lot of people still do so. Often just a little 25. And all of them will say that flashing the gun was all that was needed to prevent a mugging. No bullets were fired. No police were called. Citizen and mugger lived to see another day.

[chrish]

Jfootin, definitely a good question. I guess I'd have to roll the dice on that one. On the one hand, I can see your point. On the other, if the BG or a bystander choose to call the cops on me...either out of stupidity/do-gooder on the part of a bystander or opportunistic on the part of the BG (lawsuit), then I want to be on record as the person who was the true victim. Otherwise, I would agree...just not sure I trust the rest of the world to see it my way should it come up for some reason at a later time/date.

I guess I see the unlikely and pure evil in every situation. Wish I didn't. But with my luck, I'd draw, they'd run...then get my plates as I drove off and call the cops saying I threatened them and they were just askin' me for a buck for some beer. Yea, maybe they'd get a slap on the wrist for panhandling, which is illegal where I live, but then again, I might get slapped w/ a brandishing charge. Yea, I'm an upstanding citizen and maybe it wouldn't go down this way...but not willing to chance it.

[muggsy]

I'm not sure I agree with you muggsy. If approached by a mugger with a knife and as I draw my gun he puts his hands up and starts backing away, I don't believe I would shoot him as the threat level has dropped and he cannot really attack while backing away.

If a security camera video showed his hands in the air and backing away then I shot and killed him, I cannot see it being a favorable result with the DA. You have to assume everything is on video and act accordingly.

If I draw and fire my attacker won't have the time to put his hands in the air and retreat. Anyone who demonstrates the he is willing to take my life or cause me grievous bodily harm is in serious danger of losing his life. Survival is a mind set. I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. I won't give my attacker a second opportunity to kill or harm me because I didn't shoot.

[muggsy]

It's a very tough question to answer due to the goofy laws we live under. My hope is that my body language alone will alert any BG to my intentions without spelling it out or actually drawing. I will rotate weak side toward the attacker, move my hand into position to draw, tell them not to come any closer or I will defend myself, and then act from there if necessary. A, perfect world.

But I agree with Lincoln on this one. Draw does not always have to end in shoot. I am not suggesting using your firearm as a deterrent but if the attacker turns tail, you better not shoot them all because you have drawn. Reholster, call 911, and be honest. I will use the same language that I would have used had I needed to shoot. I was in imminent fear of my life and I drew my weapon to stop the attack. Anything further I want my lawyer to answer.

He who hesitates is lost. I only draw if I intend to shoot. I may expose my weapon and warn, but if my gun clears leather it's going to go off. I have no other reason to pull it.

[DKD]

A very long time ago I came to the conclusion that if I ever was placed in a position where I felt I needed to draw my weapon, I had already made my mind up to fire that weapon. There is no second place only first. He who hessitates just becomes the victim. I beleive you would find in most cases that there are no other witness's thats why the perpatrator chose the victim in the first place. I have had a few instances over the years where the presence or presentation of a weapon didn't end in the discharge of said weapon. I have had a couple cases where the assailant left rather quickly or fled so fast I couldn't have drawn a bead on them and I was just as glad to see them (multiple assailants) leave the scene. My intent in the later case was to finish what they started but since my butt was in hull defilade (behind cover for you non military types) and they were either on the ground or half way up a ladder coming at me, I had the option not to engage due to time & distance factor, and when they fled I had no reason to push the case since the outcome was resolved favorably. In this case I was in Miami just after huricane Andrew, where there was no law & order for a good while and I was on my own trying to conduct the business of reconstruction.

[chrish]

He who hesitates is lost. I only draw if I intend to shoot. I may expose my weapon and warn, but if my gun clears leather it's going to go off. I have no other reason to pull it.

I think I agree w/ you completely there. But in the instance in time that this all takes place, potentially just a few seconds. You could do that (draw), having already exposed your weapon, and in the split second decision making process of both you and the BG, he begins to turn as you draw. At this point, he's bugging out and you are standing there w/ a weapon pointed at him. I doubt you are going to fire at that point.

Everything happens FAST on both sides of this equation IMO. Just sayin'. That was my only point. I would expect that my 'warning' and my decision to actually draw would most likely be extremely close together. Like I said, a perfect world, which would allow me a bit of decision. If that time doesn't exist, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm in your camp on drawing and firing.

But I agree w/ the premise, my intention would be to shoot.

In the vain of the OP though, draw vs draw and shoot, I think exposing your weapon for the purposes of defining 'draw' are one and the same in the eyes of MOST brandishing laws.

[OldLincoln]

Just for me, if I had the mindset that if I draw the aggressor gets shot, I know I would hesitate on my draw until the last moment. I see the draw as one function the the shot another, much like law enforcement.

You see them draw and aim while screaming at the bad guy to get on the ground, etc. I'd rather draw and scream than draw and shoot, but that's just me. However, if the bad guy has a gun and points it my direction, like law enforcement I shoot. If he has a knife and continues toward me I shoot, just like law enforcement.

I can't help but believe law enforcement guidelines would make a reasonable defense to the DA for a justified shooting. Much stronger than telling the DA "If I draw I shoot, regardless of what the bad guy does."

[JFootin]

+1 on that^^^

[muggsy]

I think I agree w/ you completely there. But in the instance in time that this all takes place, potentially just a few seconds. You could do that (draw), having already exposed your weapon, and in the split second decision making process of both you and the BG, he begins to turn as you draw. At this point, he's bugging out and you are standing there w/ a weapon pointed at him. I doubt you are going to fire at that point.

Everything happens FAST on both sides of this equation IMO. Just sayin'. That was my only point. I would expect that my 'warning' and my decision to actually draw would most likely be extremely close together. Like I said, a perfect world, which would allow me a bit of decision. If that time doesn't exist, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm in your camp on drawing and firing.

But I agree w/ the premise, my intention would be to shoot.

In the vain of the OP though, draw vs draw and shoot, I think exposing your weapon for the purposes of defining 'draw' are one and the same in the eyes of MOST brandishing laws.

You can discuss the law if it pleases you. I'm talking survival in the real world. You can't deal with the courts if you're dead. If the assailant is close enough to do me harm when he pulls up I'm still going to consider him a threat and a stationary target. If the assailant is looking for sympathy he'll find it in the dictionary located between the words excrement and syphilis. I believe in the words, "Don't tread on me."

[chrish]

+1 on OldLinclon's statement, thats EXACTLY what I'm talking about, good way to put it.

muggsy, i'll stand down on the law discussion. i'm not a lawyer and didnt mean offend you with regard to my opinion of your proposed action. i'll just agree to disagree on this one.

[AIRret]

Old Lincoln, I agree! That is the way I see it.

I have a question. If you show your gun but do not draw it (it stays in the holster) is that brandishing?